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The Fight Club
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The Fight Club

by Marsel van Oosten

Gallery: WildlifePosted November 25, 2009717 views36 comments
The December issue of National Geographic (Dutch edition) features three pages of the brown bear images I shot in Finland. This is one of the shots that they selected, showing two playing brown bear siblings, just after the rain had stopped. The one on the left hit the one on the right on the head, causing a spray of drops from the wet fur. :cool:

The image was shot from a hide in an open swamp area, close to the Russian border.

Photographing bears in Finland is very different from photographing them in Alaska or Canada, even though they're basically the same species. In Finland you can hike in the forest for months and never encounter a single bear. One of the reasons for this is that there are simply fewer brown bears in Finland - an estimated 840 bears, compared to over 30,000 bears in Alaska. I once witnessed a scene in Alaska where 26(!) brown bears were simultaneously fishing in a salmon infested river - something not very likely to ever happen anywhere in Europe. Another reason is the fact that killing bears is the favorite hobby of many Finnish men, so bears prefer to stay away from people as much as they can.

To be able to photograph a European brown bear therefore takes some extra effort. We used a couple of hides (so that the bears couldn't see, smell, or hear us) that were put in an area with a relatively high bear density. We then had to attract the bears to this open area in order to actually get to see them. For this we used pellets of pressed vegetable matter, a responsible little bite that doesn't ruin their appetite nor impact their normal feeding routine. Most of the times this proved a succesful strategy, although there was still no way predicting what would happen.

On our first week the weather was pretty bad - heavily overcast and constant rain and drizzle. Not good for shutter speeds, but very good for bear activity. On one of the nights we saw a mother with three cubs crossing the swamp. Mum was just walking around, checking the surroundings, but her kids were playing as if their lives depended on it. Especially these two really gave a great show. I've got quite a few shots of brown bear cubs, but it's not very often that you get to see this kind of activity, so I'm very happy with the shot.

A while back someone asked me what I preferred: photographing brown bears in Finland or in Alaska. That's actually not an easy question to answer. The main advantages of photographing them in Alaska for me are; it's easier - there are more bears, you have a constantly changing scenery, changing backgrounds, you can adjust your position (up, down, left, right), and you can work with the light. When you shoot from a hide, you're stuck in one place and you just have to sit and wait. The nice thing about that though is that it makes it very exciting, and there's the fact that the bears don't notice you when you're in a hide whereby they sometimes get very close without any danger for either party. So there's something to say for both.

Hope you like the shot!

Nikon D3, AF-S 600/4.0, 1/400 @ f/4.0, ISO 1600, Wimberley II

Comments

36 comments
Comment posted by Jorne de Bruin on November 25, 2009 at 9:50 AM
Superb image Marsel, and congrats on yet another NG publication, well deserved!

I appreciate your explanation about the shooting conditions as I think there is some misunderstandig with Non-European photographers about Finland. :wavey:
Registered on June 26, 2008, 178 Posts, 2136 Comments
Comment posted by Jim Hackley on November 25, 2009 at 10:25 AM
Very nice detail and a action shot at that! Excellent shot, clarity and color are right on and thanks for providing an interesting story to go along with the image. Well done, a pleasure to view.
Registered on September 17, 2009, 302 Posts, 5535 Comments
Comment posted by Sally King on November 25, 2009 at 10:29 AM
I love the interaction between the two and that water flying off the wet fur. The soft muted light works very well and the image still seems nice and warm as if the sun is just about to break through. Wonderful image. I can see why National Geograhpic would want to use it. BTW some of us would love to see and/or photograph a brown bear anywhere.
Registered on December 2, 2008, 416 Posts, 4450 Comments
Comment posted by James Campbell on November 25, 2009 at 11:52 AM
Top shot! Well done - and thanks for the detailed explanation... the water spray absolutely makes it :wink:
Registered on January 12, 2009, 48 Posts, 377 Comments
Comment posted by Guy Runco on November 25, 2009 at 11:53 AM
Another excellent shot Marsel, congrats on the Nat Geo selection!

I don't want to be a downer, but I've got to be honest with you - I do have some ethical reservations when it comes to baiting animals with food for photography, whether you're in a blind or not.
Registered on September 9, 2008, 77 Posts, 705 Comments
Comment posted by Luke Ormand on November 25, 2009 at 12:11 PM
This is perfection (from my POV) and I think even Brad will be jealous (though he may complain about the OOF FG - jk Brad!).

The action, the water droplets, the opened mouth, the composition, the flowers, everything comes together for that perfect image, so it it's no surprise that NG is happy to display your photos. Thanks for giving us a sneak peak.
Registered on February 4, 2009, 1093 Posts, 7035 Comments
Comment posted by Cheryl Molennor on November 25, 2009 at 12:19 PM
Marsel. This is such an amazing image. I just love it.
Registered on June 30, 2009, 300 Posts, 5051 Comments
Comment posted by Roman Kurywczak on November 25, 2009 at 12:34 PM
Hi Marsel,
Great interaction but the water spray puts this at nother level! Very nicely done!
Registered on November 20, 2009, 56 Posts, 748 Comments
Comment posted by Marsel van Oosten on November 25, 2009 at 12:41 PM
I do have some ethical reservations when it comes to baiting animals with food for photography, whether you're in a blind or not.


No problem Guy - I feel the same when it's done in an irresponsible way. In this case however, the pellets are healthy, the amounts are small, way too small for the bears to become dependend on it, they remain in their natural habitat, it doesn't impact their social behavior, and it doesn't cause them to be in any danger. They are free ranging natural subjects, completely wild.

Like I mentioned in my post, I've seen 26 brown bears in one spot, all at the same time, fishing for salmon in Alaska. Now that's a situation where (a ridiculous abundance of) food causes massive impact on social behavior and geographic distribution of bears. A few pellets really don't.

Nature has always been influenced by man, and will always be influenced by man. How much or how little our influence should or should not be is often purely subjective and not based on any scientific data. One look at the history of Yellowstone NP and you know what I mean.

I'm all for responsible nature photography and conservation, but we must avoid fundamentalism - the world is not black and white.

I hope this better explains my views on this matter. Thank you for your honest response - much appreciated.

:wavey:
Registered on March 9, 2004, 285 Posts, 2277 Comments
Comment posted by Anand Narayanan on November 25, 2009 at 1:30 PM
These are utterly cute ! Love the splashing droplets and the evil look on the taller bear. If you hadn't mentioned the blow to the head, would have assumed that one cub is trying to strangle the other.

just went through the brown bear pics and videos from finland on your website ! they are amazing ! With so many brown bears posted from finland, i though that their numbers were high. Sad to know that its not the case.

Anand
Registered on October 25, 2009, 110 Posts, 835 Comments
Comment posted by Vincent Grafhorst on November 25, 2009 at 1:39 PM
What a fantastic image Marsel! No wonder it gets published in such a quality mag. Thanks also for the explanations given about the conditions in Finland and how you achieved these images. Does the NG article also mention this (i.e. that the bears are being attracted to the hide by vegetable pellets)? I do agree with you that the world is not black and white, but consists only of many shades of gray. However, Like Guy, I also feel that baiting animals to photograph them (and consequently for some people to make a profit on this!) is unethical. Of course not as unethical as shooting at them with lead pellets, but IMO it sure is a form of man's influence on nature that is not necessary. I do not know enough of bears in general let alone the specific situation in Finland however, to truly determine whether this practice is potentially harmful for the bears or not. Any opinion from an acclaimed expert's mouth can sound convincing , but that does not necessarily mean it is true. To what extend did you really study this issue by looking at the story from two sides? Just wondering...

By the way, something totally different; I saw your recent book here in the local bookstore! Big congrats Marsel, it is as professional as coffee book tables come. I was highly impressed, but not surprised. :wink:
Registered on February 24, 2006, 504 Posts, 7203 Comments
Comment posted by Don Wagner on November 25, 2009 at 3:03 PM
I'm in awe of your images, they are ALWAYS spot on!! Its amazing how you can capitalize
on the opportunities the way you do!! I can't begin to count on how many times I've blown opportunities at amazing moments in nature!? Every so often I get lucky, but if I don't get any better soon, I WILL need therapy!!

Don (Wags)
Registered on November 19, 2009, 12 Posts, 21 Comments
Comment posted by Marsel van Oosten on November 25, 2009 at 3:26 PM
Vincent - thanks for the feedback. The NG article is not really an article, it's more like a brown bear portfolio with some background information on yours truly.

I also feel that baiting animals to photograph them (and consequently for some people to make a profit on this!) is unethical. Of course not as unethical as shooting at them with lead pellets, but IMO it sure is a form of man's influence on nature that is not necessary.


The word 'baiting' works like a red flag on a raging bull, but there are many, many shades of gray. If I decide to put specific plants and flowers in my garden to attract butterflies or birds, is that unethical (i.e. necessary)? If not, if I plant my subject's favorite berry bush in front of my hide to attract it to me, is that still ok? If I buy those same berries at the local grocery and put them near my hide, is that bad? Is the use of bird feeders unethical to attract birds? If I collect some nuts from the forest and put them in the perfect spot for a nice squirrel photograph, is that unethical? And if so, unethical for whom? For the squirrel? For me? For my fellow photographers? Is sport fishing unethical? And does it matter whether life bait is used or not?

Man and beast, we are all part of nature - it belongs to all of us. How we use it is up to us, but asking yourself 'is it necessary?' is not going to get you anywhere. Is it necessary to eat meat? Is it necessary that your shoes are made of leather? We all know it's not. Is it therefore unethical to kill an animal for these purposes? Is putting some nuts out for your squirrel shot in the same category as killing a cow?

Man influences nature, but nature also influences man, and itself. If half of the elephant population in Kenya died because of yet another terrible drought, that surely wasn't necessary, yet it happened. People will just accept this, because, well, it's nature. But that's not really an answer. Apparently, for nature it is totally ok to act completely random and destroy plants and animals that did not need to be decimated in the first place. At the same time we do everything in our power to preserve nature, and we do so by greatly influencing the natural order of things. The yearly burnings in Africa are just one example. Is it really necessary? Can't we let nature run it's course? And if not, why not? And where do you draw the line of what is necessary and what is not? Who decides what is good for nature and what is bad? I already mentioned Yellowstone NP, a fine example of constantly changing insights on what is the good thing to do regarding nature conservation.

Anecdote: during our leopard workshop in South Africa, an large bull elephant had wandered into the adjacent camp. This particular camp was fenced, so the elephant had no place to go - it was trapped. After a while it got agitated and thus became a severe safety threat to the guests. Guides tried to herd it towards the exit, but that didn't work. The head ranger of the park was called in to help with the situation. At first it seemed to go allright, but then at a sudden the elephant charged the ranger - and it was not a mock charge. The ranger had no other option than to shoot the elephant - a very sad ending. The elephant was then dragged outside the camp to an open area so that other wildlife could feed on it. We happily took advantage of this situation, resulting in many cool vulture shots and rivaling hyena clans. The elephant obviously didn't die from natural causes, but by the hand of man. Was it unethical that we used the elephant carcass as bait for predators? Or wasn't it because we didn't shoot it ourselves for the purpose of photography? In other words, is it unethical if you find a dead animal and drag it somewhere to photograph whatever comes to feed off it?

As you may have noticed, I have posed a lot of questions. You may find some of them easy to answer, but I'm sure there are quite a few that are not so clear cut. The bottom line is: we should not hurt or harm others, whether it be fellow human beings or animals. But what is necessary and what not, and what causes harm and what not, remains highly subjective. My bear photographs create a lot of awareness for this magnificent animal and for instance influences public opinion on matters such as bear hunting. How can that be unnecessary?

I do not know enough of bears in general let alone the specific situation in Finland however, to truly determine whether this practice is potentially harmful for the bears or not. Any opinion from an acclaimed expert's mouth can sound convincing , but that does not necessarily mean it is true. To what extend did you really study this issue by looking at the story from two sides? Just wondering...


This isn't just about bears, it's about any form of human influence on nature, for whatever cause. Experts are useful, but opinion is not always based on hard facts or peer reviewed scientific research, and exactitude is not truth. We're all convinced that global warming is really happening, yet it is colder in Antarctica now than it was during the last two ice ages. I have spoken to biologists and bear specialists about this, and overall my impression is that this whole issue is not worth even half the amount of words I just spent on it.:smile:

Sorry for the ramble, but it's better to debate a question without settling it, than to settle a question without debating it. I come in peace. :smile:

Glad you like the book. You did buy one, didn't you? :cool:
Registered on March 9, 2004, 285 Posts, 2277 Comments
Comment posted by Guy Runco on November 25, 2009 at 4:35 PM
Thanks for the response Marsel. I'm really not trying to pick on you here, but baiting for photography (in my humble opinion) really strikes me as an unethical practice. Here in the states (maybe in Finland as well), we have a saying - "A Fed Bear Is A Dead Bear". The amount or type of food being used isn't really the issue here, the problem arises when bears begin to associate humans with food (as I'm sure you know).

Anyway, you've already explained your stance on this in detail, so to each his own! Great shots!
Registered on September 9, 2008, 77 Posts, 705 Comments
Comment posted by Marsel van Oosten on November 25, 2009 at 5:09 PM
I'm really not trying to pick on you here, but baiting for photography (in my humble opinion) really strikes me as an unethical practice.


No worries - I'm from The Netherlands, we're not easily offended. :smile:

My point is that it is actually not that easy to precisely define why it supposedly is unethical, hence the large number of questions I posed that are extremely closely related to this issue.

Here in the states (maybe in Finland as well), we have a saying - "A Fed Bear Is A Dead Bear". The amount or type of food being used isn't really the issue here, the problem arises when bears begin to associate humans with food (as I'm sure you know).


Yes, but that's in the black and white world, where all bears live close to villages and cities, where all bears get food either directly from people or from campgrounds and waste bins in people's back yards, and where people and bears constantly run into each other. In those specific circumstances you can get big problems.

Here we're talking about bears that never get any food directly from people, bears that live light years away from the nearest village, and bears that already run off when you're still a mile away. Zero incidents, ever, prove my point.

Nature is not math; what applies to an area on one side of the world doesn't necessarily apply to an area on the other side. There are many factors to consider before you can judge a specific situation. That's all I'm really trying to explain.

And I'm not trying to pick on you here. :wink:
Registered on March 9, 2004, 285 Posts, 2277 Comments
Comment posted by Ken Archer on November 25, 2009 at 6:13 PM
:eek: Amazing photo Marsel!!! Your work on these bears is awesome, space on NG's pages is well earned. Congrats!!!

Ken Archer
Registered on October 28, 2004, 222 Posts, 6683 Comments
Comment posted by Floris van Breugel on November 25, 2009 at 8:53 PM
Congrats Marsel, wonderful image, good to see you getting the continued recognition! I love the spray of water, really tells the story.

And thanks for the discussion on baiting - you raised many good questions to consider, as you say, it's a gray area. I do think agencies that promote wildlife photography need to be ever more cognizant about the practice, as I have seen occasions where IMO the line was clearly crossed. In your case, it sounds to me like you considered the situation very carefully, and made a sound judgment call.
Registered on December 19, 2008, 306 Posts, 4840 Comments
Comment posted by Lon Sharp on November 25, 2009 at 9:46 PM
Marsel, I applaud you for your clear and expansive thinking on this matter! You are so correct that these kinds of issues offer endless shades between the black and white rules so many would like to embrace.

By the way, congratulations on again garnering well deserved recognition. Fine photo!
Registered on December 9, 2007, 258 Posts, 9892 Comments
Comment posted by Brad Hill on November 25, 2009 at 10:51 PM
Hi Marsel,

First off, thanks very much to sticking to the EXACT letter of the law re: image posting guidelines - you stated clearly the "set-up" you used to make the shot AND it was admirable that you mentioned that bait was used (which, in the manner you used it, is NOT specifically against the image posting guidelines OR anything listed in the under NPN's ethics resources). I think open disclosure is so critical in nature photography and you passed that test with flying colours. Well done.

Second, it's a great shot! The single thing which puts the image over the top for me is the water droplets flying off cub's head. It's reminiscent of a number of shots I've seen of boxers who have had their "bell rung" by their opponent and sweat is flying off their head (tho' I'm well aware this is not sweat). Very well done!

Third, I have to say that you make a present a lot of points in your commentary as fact even though many of them are highly debatable - using phrases like "...responsible little bite..." makes it sound like there IS such a thing, which is open to debate. On the issue of the ethics of baiting bears for the purpose of photography - I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, and this gallery isn't really the place to enter into such debate - we're here to critique images (so I won't take the bait :wink: ). I am more than prepared to enter into a scientific debate on this issue in the appropriate venue, but have to hold off until my article on the topic is published (can't give away the all the good punch lines here!).

And finally, the most important thing - my tiny little nit in the image - don't you just hate it when the only orange-ish vertical line in the image happens to be right behind the main subjects head? Just pulling your chain Marsel - it's obviously a GREAT image! Take care...

Brad
Registered on May 29, 2007, 431 Posts, 6061 Comments
Comment posted by Ron Richins on November 25, 2009 at 11:29 PM
After reading the comments and spending some time thinking about this, I want to throw in my two cents on the subject. It seems that a lot of the criticism is coming from a photographic point of view, rather than a wildlife point of view. I think what’s important here is how this impacts the bear. As you stated, the pellets don’t significantly impact the animal. Also, you state that human interactions with bears aren’t in black and white—humans do interact with bears in varying degrees. Hence, the cost of the interaction with these bears in order to get the shot has to be weighed against the benefits of raising awareness of the animal’s situation in that part of the world. I don’t see that the cost was greater than the potential benefit. This particular method of getting the shot isn’t natural. So too setting up a blind at a waterhole in Africa isn’t natural. Or, strapping a saddle onto an elephant and traipsing through the jungle looking for tigers isn’t natural. Nor, running a zodiac up a river. People use these methods for getting a shot too. Looking at this photo from a bear’s perspective, I don’t see a problem with it; there’s certainly worse interaction human’s could have with the bear. Looking at this from a photographic perspective, I like it.
Registered on March 6, 2008, 113 Posts, 1009 Comments
Comment posted by Marsel van Oosten on November 26, 2009 at 6:27 AM
Thanks for all your comments - it's been interesting to hear your thoughts.

@ Brad: Thank you for your feedback, much appreciated. I don't think I have presented a lot of points in my commentary as fact though, quite the contrary I'd say: I have tried to raise as many closely related questions as possible in an effort to demonstrate how many nuances there are that are often so quickly and easily overlooked or ignored. The world is becoming increasingly more black and white, and I just like to keep my eyes open for all those different shades of gray.

Anyway, it's all very interesting and I'd love to continue this discussion some other time, some other place. :smile:

@ Ron: Thank you for your input, I appreciate your valuable contribution to this discussion.
Registered on March 9, 2004, 285 Posts, 2277 Comments
Comment posted by Ben Gardner on November 26, 2009 at 7:18 AM
Fabulous image Marsel, huge fan of your work and this is of the usual high standard.

Registered on October 2, 2008, 7 Posts, 13 Comments
Comment posted by Brad Hill on November 26, 2009 at 9:03 AM
Hey Marsel,

While I still want to avoid getting into this here, all your comments about the shade of gray in this argument refer to the ethical issues and philosophical issues, not the hard science and biological facts (including a host of peer-reviewed scientific papers) about the detrimental effects of supplementary feeding of wild ursids. There is even a cogent biological argument concerning why there is a qualitative difference in the negative effects of engaging in supplementary feeding for some taxa (such as your butterflies) and not others (with the end result of the BIOLOGICAL differences between the species being that not too many fast-reproducing and non-endangered butterflies are destroyed after they form a food association with humans...but the same can't be said for bears). Even if you remove the potential for future human interactions that have been influenced by supplemental feeding of bears (which I don't believe you can, but that's not important here), artificially increasing the concentration of ursids has been shown to increase the risk of mortality to cubs (via predation by adult males) AND increase the stress levels of bears (as demonstrated by heart-rate telemetry studies). And this is only a sample of the biological facts that can be assembled against the "careful baiting of bears is OK" argument. Don't worry, you'll see the whole argument laid out down the road.

Sorry, but biologically there's no debate here.

Regards...

Brad
Registered on May 29, 2007, 431 Posts, 6061 Comments
Comment posted by Marsel van Oosten on November 26, 2009 at 9:27 AM
Sorry, but biologically there's no debate here.


With all due respect Brad, but there is always room for debate, also biologically.

I won't get into it here and await your paper.
Registered on March 9, 2004, 285 Posts, 2277 Comments
Comment posted by Brad Hill on November 26, 2009 at 10:47 AM
Hey Marsel,

A-Ok! But back to the ethical and philosophical issues (which are always complicated by an infinite array of shades of gray) - your commentary and the ensuing discussion have made me think of a very interesting question (and I don't have the answer to it!):

Just how much can we rightfully expect a photographer to learn about their chosen subject (including the specifics and nuances of their biology) before engaging in acts which intentionally change the behaviour and/or distribution of a subject for the purpose of capturing an image? After all, most photographers are NOT biologists and/or research scientists themselves and thus tend to rely on "authority statements" of others.

I don't have the answer to this, but it does motivate me to get that paper out quicker (it just leaped up several notches on my to-do list).

Cheers...and it's still a GREAT image!

Brad
Registered on May 29, 2007, 431 Posts, 6061 Comments
Comment posted by Dan Walters on November 26, 2009 at 12:25 PM
Love the interaction and the drops of water coming off the bear on the right.
Registered on October 30, 2005, 405 Posts, 3693 Comments
Comment posted by Vincent Grafhorst on November 26, 2009 at 2:05 PM
Sorry Marsel, I did not buy it... it is too expensive for a poor African :biggrin:
Registered on February 24, 2006, 504 Posts, 7203 Comments
Comment posted by Marsel van Oosten on November 26, 2009 at 2:34 PM
Brad - I suggest we save the rest of this (very interesting) discussion for another time, another place. Ok?
Registered on March 9, 2004, 285 Posts, 2277 Comments
Comment posted by Nilanjan Das on November 26, 2009 at 10:37 PM
This is such a nice moment. Loved the write up. :toast:
Registered on June 5, 2008, 94 Posts, 383 Comments
Comment posted by Carl Donohue on November 27, 2009 at 3:00 AM
Hey Marsel,

I like this a lot - the soft light is great, but it's the negative space and the small white blooming flowers that really makes it happen, for me.

On the issue of baiting, I'm not sure it's reasonable to post a baited image of a wild animal and then suggest the discussion of that process should be taken elsewhere - I think perhaps such discussions, if they're honest, are of most value when they're in context, not abstracted elsewhere.

One of the reasons I say that is because I tend to agree with you - there's no “comprehensive protocol” for nature, nor should there be for our dealing with nature, beyond respect. There's no other “catch all” answer to this kind of question, it's entirely contextual. If baiting an animal for wildlife photography can be done respectfully and reasonably, I don't think it's the atrocity that many like to proclaim.

The issue is mostly one of scale; I might sit in the woods in the world's largest wilderness and bait an animal to make a photo and consider it to be immeasurably different to, say, baiting an animal in a heavily visited National Park or similar, or to leading a group of photographers to some setup and shooting together - that snowballs and the dynamic changes.

That said, a couple of points; there are many places in Alaska that are miles from any village or city (way further than anywhere in Finland, believe me), and the “Fed Bear = Dead Bear” mantra is still generally followed - one of the reasons is because bears can and do travel enormous distance in their quest for food. Another is there's simply no way to ensure the bears don't associate that food with people, regardless of how careful you might be, or how strongly we feel about it.

Interestingly, Charlie Vandergaw fed bears for 20-30 years at his 'bear haven' and never had a problem either. State F&G dept fined him $75 000.00

This statement "My bear photographs create a lot of awareness for this magnificent animal and for instance influences public opinion on matters such as bear hunting" doesn't justify anything, in my opinion. Zoos use the same argument, and I feel strongly that it's a ruse to justify the exploitation of animals for profit.

On track, I think, as I said earlier, the issue is one of scale. And I'd say doing something like this, as a wildlife photographer, in the wild, alone, isn't terribly troubling. If someone was doing this running workshops or phototours, etc, then I think it likely becomes problematic, because the scale inevitably changes, no matter how hard we try to keep things small.

Cheers

Carl
Registered on November 1, 2003, 46 Posts, 589 Comments
Comment posted by Marsel van Oosten on November 27, 2009 at 4:56 AM
Hi Carl - thank you for your feedback, much appreciated.

The decision to not continue this discussion here was made with both moderators - the image forum is not considered to be the right place for such a discussion. I am more than happy to continue this debate somewhere else on this community, as I feel it is both interesting and important to see the full perspective. Brad is currently working on a paper and I'm sure he will post the results in the appropriate forum. We can then continue the discussion.

My prediction is that we will not reach a concensus. The field of ethics is very complex and highly subjective, and in these cases one side is hardly ever able to convince the other. Try to convince a communist that making a profit is not unethical. Even from a purely scientific perspective it will be close to impossible to prove that what applies to one species in one area, applies to that same species in all other areas, at any scale. But I'm looking forward to the discussion.
Registered on March 9, 2004, 285 Posts, 2277 Comments
Comment posted by Carl Donohue on November 29, 2009 at 4:49 AM
Hey Marsel,

Oh, I've been around this forum long enough to know the general protocol is not to discuss stuff like this here, but go to another forum - which, to me, is simply sweeping it under the carpet. As I said earlier, the value of such discussions, whether they lead to consensus or not, is only when they have some context. I also think trying to have a “critique forum” without discussing the ethical considerations of how an image was made is kinda like trying to discuss Christianity without using the word God, for fear of offending anyone.

:)

Cheers

Carl
Registered on November 1, 2003, 46 Posts, 589 Comments
Comment posted by Brad Hill on November 29, 2009 at 9:21 AM
Carl,

Sorry to contact you this way - but you have no email address listed so I have no choice. Marsel is totally right that it was the moderators who suggested this discussion should be migrated away from this forum. I am guessing at this, but I think Marsel would have been fine with going on with it (i.e., don't blame him). Feel free to send me an email if you want to hear the full rationale for it.

Cheers...

Brad
Registered on May 29, 2007, 431 Posts, 6061 Comments
Comment posted by Carl Donohue on November 29, 2009 at 6:00 PM
Hey Brad

Sure, like I said, I've been around this forum nearly since it's inception, so I'm well aware of the protocols for the various forums. I think they should be changed, but that that's not my decision to make, so it's no big deal to me.

Are you really serious that with all the literature listed beneath my name here you can't find a way to contact me off the forum?

Cheers

Carl
Registered on November 1, 2003, 46 Posts, 589 Comments
Comment posted by Floris van Breugel on December 1, 2009 at 9:36 PM
So where's the new venue for the discussion? It was getting so interesting! :smile: Would either Brad or Marsel like to start a new thread in whichever of the other forums here would be best suited? General discussion perhaps?
Registered on December 19, 2008, 306 Posts, 4840 Comments
Comment posted by Roger Hayden on December 7, 2009 at 9:48 PM
The water spray and positions of these guys reminds me of two boxers in a ring. Obviously worthy of publication in NatGeo.
I really appreciate the accomplished photographers posting and participating here.
Registered on November 21, 2009, 41 Posts, 201 Comments