Hello,
I have recently been admonished that I am not critiquing/commenting enough on others photos, and that doing so is imperative to my learning and growing.as a photographer. I am here to learn and glean
what I can from so many of you talented and knowledgeable photographers, but that seems to be doubted and I only want hear what you have to say about my own images. That simply isn't true, though I can understand why you might think that.
Please let me explain my hesitance on giving critiques....
I am completely self-taught and with no formal classes or mentoring, I often feel inadequate and slightly foolish commenting on
photos and talent so superior to mine. I really don't want to leave trite comments like--good job, great work, i love this, etc. It may stroke
someone's ego, but is not the least helpful as a critique.
Because of the lack of formal training, I truly do not know how to assess a situation and properly use the camera settings to get the shot I want. Often I feel like it's just pure dumb luck when I get something worthy of real praise.
I'm not sure what to do...the Sony is a new camera me to with bells and whistles I haven't figured out. I tried to sign up for classes through my local state college, but the photography courses aren't given often. I called a few local places that offer classes, but I can't afford any of them. I have learned a great deal through my camera club, but can't compete with them because I have stopped progressing. After 6 years in that club I am considering not joining next year, They are the best in helping each other out. I have benefited most from entering monthly competitions and listening to the judges critique every image, as well as the weekly speakers. I can't afford most of the planned road trips, so my making and keeping friendships has dwindled. I see that happening here alsIo. If anyone has any ideas on how I can learn without $$ and without feeling inadequate or stupid. I'd be most appreciative to hear them..I have looked at many, many images here, but as you have noticed, have only left a few comments. You have all been so kind and patient with me but it's time to 'fess up and face the music.
So, that's my bleeding heart story. I anxiously await your advice.
Thanks so much for putting up with me!
Lori
If anyone has any ideas on how I can learn without $$ and without feeling inadequate or stupid. I'd be most appreciative to hear them
Hi, Lori. I can't really explain to you what my images (and that's a word that was new to me when I joined NPN in, I think, 2010) were like when I joined. I liked them. I thought it was totally awesome to have an image of a dragonfly sitting on my finger, which I think was the first image I posted. And while that actually is totally awesome, I came to find out through NPN that that was only the beginning. I actually emailed Jim Erhardt before I joined NPN to tell them that I knew absolutely nothing, and I asked him if he thought people would mind. He said he didn't think so.
There may have been people who minded, but if there were I never, ever knew about them. I've only known about the people who have spent SO MUCH time and effort to help me. There is one (former?) NPN member who lives in Florida, though several hours away from me, who has a photography tour business now, but at that time that business was in its infancy, and he emailed me and said that I was trying to hard that he'd like to know if I'd like to meet him for a day at Viera Wetlands, no money involved, to learn the basics of photography and of processing in Photoshop. I did. He let me use one of his cameras.
I did not have or feel okay about spending a lot of money, because I didn't know how this would go. I was told that a Canon 7D would be a good basic camera for bird photography (though I wanted to and did everything else, too). I learned that the lens I have, a Canon prime lens with no zoom and no image stabilization and that does not work with a teleconverter but is 400mm, was the minimum lens I could use for bird photography. It was about $1,200. I wanted a prime lens (the best quality for Canon) because I wanted to give my work the best chance I could. But the zoom lens, the teleconverter lenses, were several thousand dollars and more, and I couldn't do that. So I got the 7D and the lens I have.
There are two sides to the equipment issue. One is that it's the photographer that makes the difference, not the equipment. The other is that you genuinely can't do some kinds of photography without at least minimally appropriate equipment. Maybe someone who knows about your camera can give you some help with that.
But after that the only money I have spent is on gas. I can't afford to go to Africa, although for reasons unrelated to photography that would be at the top of my bucket list if I had one. I can't afford the photography tours that people offer. Note that I'm NOT saying the tours aren't worth the money. I'm simply saying i can't afford them. But I have spent countless hours doing as much photography as I can in places mostly within two hours from here (Northeast Florida): wetlands centers, national wildlife refuges, nature centers. And I think that without money time is the best investment you can make.
Due to issues unrelated to photography I didn't do any photography at all for two years. Toward the end of that time, as people kept encouraging me to "just pick up the camera," I finally did. That was last spring, and I hope I never stop again.
My very best resource has been NPN. I have taken every comment to heart. The few that I have maybe disagreed with I've just set aside, but I've done redos (sorry, everybody) on almost every image I've ever posted based on the feedback I've gotten. Yes, I often feel inadequate and even stupid, but the fact that I feel those things isn't because of photography. And I only very, very rarely have felt inadequate because of any feedback I've gotten at NPN, and that's on me, not on the commenter.
My advice on commenting: It's fine to start with the fact that you like X about an image. Be very sure that you include the X, though, because that's what will help you grow. You like the clean background, you like the colors, the details are good, you like the composition, etc. Study the image before you comment on it. Read the other comments before you comment on it. If someone has a critique, look back at the image so you can see what that person is talking about. You don't have to repeat it, but just make sure you see whether you can see it and agree with it.
Then if you have any suggestions, not critiques, but suggestions, try that: Maybe you could add a little more contrast and see how that looks, maybe you could try cropping a little more off the top and see how that looks, etc.
Then if you come to the point of being able to actually do critiques, fine. If you don't, fine. But you can do yourself and the poster a world of good by just commenting specifically on what you like and what you might try differently.
So I'm you, Lori. I have no $$ and I, too, feel inadequate and sometimes stupid, but not because of photography. NPN is the place for you to be. Post your image and ask questions about it. Tell people what you're not sure of. Ask people what they would do differently. If you ask specific questions you'll get specific answers.
I realize this reply is very long, but I think I maybe one of the people here that knows exactly what you're talking about and how you feel. I wish you the very best with your life and your photography.
I fully understand where you're coming from, and I appreciate you having the guts to "spill your guts" about your supposed inadequacies when it comes to critiquing others. I used the term supposed not to belittle you in any way, but to point out you are more than adequate for the task. So you haven't been formally trained, neither have I. So you're not Ansel Adams, neither are any of the rest of us. So you aren't familiar with your Sony camera yet, you can learn (order a book from Amazon or pull up YouTube). The one thing I can assure you of is that you are capable of giving critiques; perhaps not when it comes to certain techniques you don't yet understand or haven't mastered yet, but you're capable of telling someone what you like or don't like about an image. You have an opinion, and that opinion is valid; you shouldn't be ashamed of it and you have every right to have that opinion whether or not somebody else may agree or disagree. Believe it or not, you may learn a little from others critiquing your work, but you will learn exponentially more from critiquing others work. Start small, get your feet wet with some "trite" comments (very nice, looks greats, etc.) After a week of that, expand your critiques to include "very nice, and this is WHY I like it, or this is WHAT I like about it" This will force you to study other's work and really see why and what you appreciate in their photography (is it the colors, the composition, the subject matter, the lighting, etc.). From that, put what you have learned from other's work into practice in your own photography. Look for the small details in other's work that makes the image a failure or success for you. Don't be afraid to mention that to the other photographer, it might be just the thing they need to hear to make them a better photographer. Once you begin issuing critiques it will become easier and easier and your confidence will grow, and your photography should improve as well. I think most of us felt the exact same apprehension when we first began giving critiques but that feeling fades quickly. Jump in, the waters fine, and your fellow NPN'ers will help you along.
Hello Lori, your post here is similar to others in the past by folks who started their journey into the world of photography and web critique posting of images overall.
I've read your comment here and also looked at the post you'd made where others mentioned the point about your CP (comment-post) ratio. I found all of the points of encouragement from others about the need to do more commenting to be excellent and well thought out.
Please keep in mind, & like you, many of us have never had any formal training with regard to photography. With that said, the learning curve never ends. Professionals will admit to that point, although their learning curve by now would be extremely narrower and more specialized no doubt.
I would say that NPN has been a strong catalyst for helping most photographers who have participated here over time to a much higher level with regard to their own personal photographic skill levels. For some it was easier then for others. But I would think that very few would say that they did not improve their work over the long haul.
I think some of the stronger ideas or POV's around others improving their own work by commenting is extremely valid. IMO it truly enhances ones skills in moving away from the WOW factor, to seeing the not so pretty parts that maybe strong negative points about an image. That keen eye can help prevent those same mistakes when performing our own work. In many cases it is not just looking at the images, it is really taking time to read the input by others to see if you notice the same points being made. So, a mere acknowledgment comment about the same point is part of the learning process. Eventually, when you start to see items that others may not have noticed, good or bad, you will have moved to a new level.
Many thanks to all three of you for taking the time to answer me with so much understanding and encouragement. Barbara, your words touched me and made me cry. You really DO understand..especially the financial aspect. You have left a number of kind comments on my work and I appreciate it. Perhaps we are kindred spirits.
Bill, thanks for the encouragement. I can't believe you've had no formal training. Your work is top notch! And I've been remiss in telling you so. Thank you once again.
Paul, your note seems to make it unanimous that I am not using NPN to get the most out of it. So, if I ask I truly dumb, basic question, for instance about f stops and dof, I'll get honest answers and not be laughed out of town? (my fear, no one has ever said that). BTW...love your hummie logo, I have one, also.
It's been a bad morning here. You have all brought some sunshine into my window. I was ready to quit. Maybe I'll stick around and give the critiquing a whirl.
Much obliged,
Lori
Lori, here are a few things that I didn't even know the meaning of when I first got here: DOF, OOF, ULC (upper left corner), etc. I know you already know the meanings, so you're ahead of the game! :)
Those are exactly the kinds of questions people who know the answers to them like. They're specific questions about aspects of photography that don't change.
You can also ask questions about the more personal aspects, like do you think this is too dark or too light, and you might get different answers from different people, but that's okay, too. Then you'll know kind of what the general opinion is and you can make your own decision.
But the truly basic questions you mentioned? Yes. People will love them.
1. Be you. Don't compare or measure yourself against other photographers (or people in general for that matter.) I love and admire Bill Chambers work and lots of other folks here on NPN. But I don't want to be Bill. I want to be me. That makes us all unique. I love Harley's signature quote: "You were born an original. Don't die a copy."
2. Remove "critique" from your vocabulary. It's a stuffy word anyway. Really, all a critique is, is an opinion. We all have them. It's perfectly fine to comment and tell someone that you like an image and perhaps even why you like it. It's understood by most that if you don't feel you have the technical experience to offer suggestions for improvement, then there's no reason to you to offer any. That's ok. Over time, you learn using the "guilt by association" method. for example, someone suggests cropping an image, that might make you take note and whether you say or not, you can make your own judgment on whether you think a crop would improve an image.
3. Comment:Post ratio. It's a number and frankly maybe we should get rid of it. My own take on that is that it's not really about the number or ratio. It's about participation, engagement and community. If a member participates and engages with other members, asks questions, solicits feedback (not assuming, but really asking,) then they deserve to be helped, coached, encouraged, etc. It's when that ratio is combined with silence, no interaction, no solicitation, no contribution, etc. etc., then the number stands out like a sore thumb.
4. Learning. Clearly you have the desire and drive to learn. Perhaps, all you need is to jump over that little confidence hump. It's all out there for you. But you do NOT have to learn it all to improve. Learn one thing at a time. Knowledge alone however doesn't guarantee improvement, right? for example, for a long time here on NPN there's been discussions about posters providing technical data (camera, lens, settings, etc.) for two reasons: One, so a viewer has a reference to perhaps help and make suggestions and two, so that others may learn HOW and image was taken. The concern for some, is that by providing the technical data, some may just run with it, without learning WHY the settings or equipment was used. Here's a simple, made up example. You see an image posted that really strikes you, it's a beautiful landscape, just after sunset, the earth's shadow creating a lovely pink hue on the horizon.... In the post they include: Nikon D700, Tamron 24-135mm lens, ISO 800, f/25 at 1sec. And you conclude that ISO 800 and f/25 will give you great results for landscapes. I'm not saying you or anyone would, but there are just too many variables to glean anything really from the technical info. IMHO.
5. Go at your own pace. There are no timelines - only the ones you set for yourself. ENJOY the journey and try not to be hard on yourself cause you're not where you want to be - yet. But where you are now is all that matters.
Lori, there's no question critiquing is hard. But there's also no questioning it is a terrific way to learn. It's well worth the effort. If you're not comfortable giving opinions, then ask questions. Ask, "Why do you have the bird looking into the open space?" Ask "How did you get the gleam in the eye of the bird?" Ask "Could you have blurred the background by using a wider aperture?"
As others have suggested, figure out why you like an image and mention that. Improving your images to a large extent is paying attention to lots of little details. You have to teach yourself how to notice those details before you can teach yourself how to address them.
Read the comments others post. When NPN works best, each image is a little case study in how to make an image. Terrific nature hotographers who sell their advice in seminar will comment on your photos, almost for free. All you have to do is pay it forward by commenting on others' images.
And keep taking and posting images. Any number of photographers here will tell you it's all about practicing what you learn.
Lori, I think it is inaccurate and unfair to the people who took the time to comment and make suggestions to you, including in the post you reference, to say that you were "admonished" in regard to not critiquing/commenting enough on others photos, or that doing so was "imperative." You joined NPN more than six months ago, and regularly post images. I have commented on a few of your images, and also took the time when you first joined to give you detailed posting tips and direct you to the posting guidelines. This was the first time that I (and maybe anyone) made a comment about you not commenting on the images of others. Moreover, my comment, which was made in response to your request for critiques and statement about being here to learn, read that I "...encourage you to start to critically study and comment on images other than your own. Try to determine what you like and why, and what you don't like and why, in other images. If you put this in writing, you'll learn as you go." You were therefore "encouraged" not "admonished."
Second, you don't have to have had formal training or be an advanced photographer or, indeed, a photographer at all, to comment on images. As noted previously, most people here have not had any formal training. NPN comment guidelines basically say to just say what you like and don't like about the photograph. Anyone can do that. Or, just say whay you like if you don't want to "critique" the image or be negative. I will also add that it is often valuable for people who post images to get the opinions of non-photographers on what they like and don't like about a photograph.
Third, I note that you have been award several WPs in your time at NPN, and your photography suggests that you are not new to photography. I also now see that you have a Linked in page that indicates that you are an aspiring professional photographer with 10 years experience, and also lists some photography awards and associations, so I think you may be understating your ability to participate and contribute.
Although NPN is a social and community forum with participation guidelines, what a member gets from NPN is mostly on him or her. There is a lot more to NPN than posting images. In my comment to your image post, I was simply suggesting ways for you to get more out of NPN because you say you are here to learn. Studying images, commenting on images, reading and considering comments other people make on images (both on your own and others) are all ways to get more out NPN. Also, if you take the time to comment on other images, then people will be more inclined to reciprocate, and vice-versa. To be clear, however, the extent to which anyone chooses to participate is their own decision.
Hi Lori! You've received some good feedback above and I don't want to repeat it, but your description of yourself is very much a description of me when I began. What I learned is that critiquing photos teaches you how to look at, and more importantly, how to see the photo. That is very important in developing your ability to "see" your subject and composition before you push the shutter button. At first I was very uncomfortable giving a critique, and my initial critiques were rather shallow. But the more I read the critiques from others and tried to see what they saw, the more I started seeing in photos I was critiquing. Like so many other things, critiquing photos is a skill that can only be developed through practice.
My advise is don't let your self doubt stop you. Your critiques will feel shallow in the beginning but your ability to see and critique will grow.
Oh my, I never expected so many insightful, lengthy and caring responses.
Yes, Scott I have been playing with cameras for several years, I have won a couple of competitions locally and within my camera club.
But I stopped growing. I have learned some things from FB groups, camera club, but I feel I should be further ahead in the game. I'm sure you are all right, and I should stop whining and jump in and test the waters. I will. Be gentle with me, but be honest, please?
I cannot express how grateful I am for all your support and encouragement.
So...let's move forward with a backpack full of great advice...
Lori, the fact that you are aware that you've 'stopped growing' as a photographer is a good thing. Many photographers have reached a plateau but are unaware of it. By growing as a photographer I don't mean acquiring more technical skills: focus blending, dynamic range blending, mastering DOF issues, learning the fundamentals of good composition. Since the medium will change forever there will always be technical skills to acquire. That's not really growing as a photographer.
Real growth is seeing more profoundly. It's what takes place before clicking the shutter release, before even picking up the camera. Most good writers that I've read say that you can't get better by shooting more or even wanting to get better. You just have to be more fully engaged with your surroundings and you will eventually start to respond internally in a more profound way. Good images just show what's in you. Superficial images are about the subject whereas good images is how you feel about the subject. Growth is going from the first to the second and continuously exploring the second. The above comments refer to landscape photography and may not apply to macro, avian, etc.
Superficial images are about the subject whereas good images is how you feel about the subject. Growth is going from the first to the second and continuously exploring the second.
Excellent observation, Igor. I agree 100%, and I think it applies to all types of nature photography if done as a medium of art (i.e., trying to show the beauty of nature through art).
I have been out of town, so I missed this thread, but I'll add my 2 cents worth now!!
Lori, like many others on here, I don't have any formal training, either. I have never taken a photography class of any kind. How did I start? After I got out of college (many, many years ago), I bought a Nikon SLR. I bought a book by John Shaw, a great nature photographer. I read that book over and over and over. This was a WAY before digital, so I kept a little notebook where I wrote down all the tech specs for every single photo I took. When I got the pictures back, I compared the specs to each photo. What was the shutter speed for that one? What was the f-stop? I did not use AUTO; I forced myself to makes decisions about each photo I took.
I understand completely what you say about your Sony have a lot of bells and whistles, believe me. I bought a Fuji X-T1 last year, and it had plenty of fancy stuff on it. I simply did not use most of it. This year, I went on a family trip with lots of airplane time, so I finally took the manual for that camera along and read every single page. I had the camera along, too, so I could check out all the directions. Don't worry if it takes you a while to learn all those bells and whistles. Learn the absolute basics: shutter speed, f-stop, depth-of-field, ISO... The really cool thing about digital cameras is that you can look at the image nice and big on your computer screen while looking at all the settings you used, so you can see the relationship between all those.
Now, as to commenting here on NPN. I think Bill Chambers said it....just look at the image and think WHAT do I like about it? WHY do I like that? And don't be afraid to ask yourself "What do I NOT like about it?" It really is that simple. Read through all the comments and note what everyone else says. And yes, sometimes it IS hard to figure why you like an image. Sometimes it's the first impression, or the overall impact of an image that gets to us. Other times, it's the details, the tiny little things you see as your eye wanders through an image. Personally, I look at images from the viewpoint of how they would look hanging on a wall. I do this because I like printed images, and do my own printing. However, many people primarily view images on digital media, and that's a whole different way to think of images.
Sometimes we (mostly) all agree on an image, but you will notice that quite often, comments will be split. Photographs are very, very subjective.
I understand also your comment about your camera club. I went through that same thing. Feel free to move beyond them, and find all the different ways to keep learning and improving, and plenty of those ways are cheap or free!! The internet has lots of information; sometimes is can just be hard to find what you need. Search through photographer's images to find ones you like, and then see if that person has a blog. This is a great way to see how they approach their images, and many times they put really helpful information in there. I don't remember which camera you said you have, but try to find a users forum about it, and go from there.
I am one of the people on here who really believes the give and take of posting and commenting is extremely important. We are all busy, and I am not going to spend my time commenting on someone's images when they do not put in the effort to comment on other's posts. Is commenting hard? Yes, it can be. Many times I struggle to find something to say. I find that, for me, that first impression is best. What do I say to myself when I first see the image? Usually, I try to write something before I ever look at the other comments, but sometimes I'm not sure, and I go read what others have said. And you know what? Many times I will go back to the image with a fresh outlook.
Keep at it. I think several other people on here have touched on this, but there are several very different aspects of photography that you can learn here on NPN. First, there is the technical aspect. Focus, composition, exposure, all that stuff. Then, there is the style, or the type of photography : macro, photo-art, HDR, highly colored, pure wildlife, just to name a few. There are world-class photographers on here, and the more you can interact with them, the more you can learn about both the technical side and the style. Keep at it!
Discussion
13 repliesI have recently been admonished that I am not critiquing/commenting enough on others photos, and that doing so is imperative to my learning and growing.as a photographer. I am here to learn and glean
what I can from so many of you talented and knowledgeable photographers, but that seems to be doubted and I only want hear what you have to say about my own images. That simply isn't true, though I can understand why you might think that.
Please let me explain my hesitance on giving critiques....
I am completely self-taught and with no formal classes or mentoring, I often feel inadequate and slightly foolish commenting on
photos and talent so superior to mine. I really don't want to leave trite comments like--good job, great work, i love this, etc. It may stroke
someone's ego, but is not the least helpful as a critique.
Because of the lack of formal training, I truly do not know how to assess a situation and properly use the camera settings to get the shot I want. Often I feel like it's just pure dumb luck when I get something worthy of real praise.
I'm not sure what to do...the Sony is a new camera me to with bells and whistles I haven't figured out. I tried to sign up for classes through my local state college, but the photography courses aren't given often. I called a few local places that offer classes, but I can't afford any of them. I have learned a great deal through my camera club, but can't compete with them because I have stopped progressing. After 6 years in that club I am considering not joining next year, They are the best in helping each other out. I have benefited most from entering monthly competitions and listening to the judges critique every image, as well as the weekly speakers. I can't afford most of the planned road trips, so my making and keeping friendships has dwindled. I see that happening here alsIo. If anyone has any ideas on how I can learn without $$ and without feeling inadequate or stupid. I'd be most appreciative to hear them..I have looked at many, many images here, but as you have noticed, have only left a few comments. You have all been so kind and patient with me but it's time to 'fess up and face the music.
So, that's my bleeding heart story. I anxiously await your advice.
Thanks so much for putting up with me!
Lori
Hi, Lori. I can't really explain to you what my images (and that's a word that was new to me when I joined NPN in, I think, 2010) were like when I joined. I liked them. I thought it was totally awesome to have an image of a dragonfly sitting on my finger, which I think was the first image I posted. And while that actually is totally awesome, I came to find out through NPN that that was only the beginning. I actually emailed Jim Erhardt before I joined NPN to tell them that I knew absolutely nothing, and I asked him if he thought people would mind. He said he didn't think so.
There may have been people who minded, but if there were I never, ever knew about them. I've only known about the people who have spent SO MUCH time and effort to help me. There is one (former?) NPN member who lives in Florida, though several hours away from me, who has a photography tour business now, but at that time that business was in its infancy, and he emailed me and said that I was trying to hard that he'd like to know if I'd like to meet him for a day at Viera Wetlands, no money involved, to learn the basics of photography and of processing in Photoshop. I did. He let me use one of his cameras.
I did not have or feel okay about spending a lot of money, because I didn't know how this would go. I was told that a Canon 7D would be a good basic camera for bird photography (though I wanted to and did everything else, too). I learned that the lens I have, a Canon prime lens with no zoom and no image stabilization and that does not work with a teleconverter but is 400mm, was the minimum lens I could use for bird photography. It was about $1,200. I wanted a prime lens (the best quality for Canon) because I wanted to give my work the best chance I could. But the zoom lens, the teleconverter lenses, were several thousand dollars and more, and I couldn't do that. So I got the 7D and the lens I have.
There are two sides to the equipment issue. One is that it's the photographer that makes the difference, not the equipment. The other is that you genuinely can't do some kinds of photography without at least minimally appropriate equipment. Maybe someone who knows about your camera can give you some help with that.
But after that the only money I have spent is on gas. I can't afford to go to Africa, although for reasons unrelated to photography that would be at the top of my bucket list if I had one. I can't afford the photography tours that people offer. Note that I'm NOT saying the tours aren't worth the money. I'm simply saying i can't afford them. But I have spent countless hours doing as much photography as I can in places mostly within two hours from here (Northeast Florida): wetlands centers, national wildlife refuges, nature centers. And I think that without money time is the best investment you can make.
Due to issues unrelated to photography I didn't do any photography at all for two years. Toward the end of that time, as people kept encouraging me to "just pick up the camera," I finally did. That was last spring, and I hope I never stop again.
My very best resource has been NPN. I have taken every comment to heart. The few that I have maybe disagreed with I've just set aside, but I've done redos (sorry, everybody) on almost every image I've ever posted based on the feedback I've gotten. Yes, I often feel inadequate and even stupid, but the fact that I feel those things isn't because of photography. And I only very, very rarely have felt inadequate because of any feedback I've gotten at NPN, and that's on me, not on the commenter.
My advice on commenting: It's fine to start with the fact that you like X about an image. Be very sure that you include the X, though, because that's what will help you grow. You like the clean background, you like the colors, the details are good, you like the composition, etc. Study the image before you comment on it. Read the other comments before you comment on it. If someone has a critique, look back at the image so you can see what that person is talking about. You don't have to repeat it, but just make sure you see whether you can see it and agree with it.
Then if you have any suggestions, not critiques, but suggestions, try that: Maybe you could add a little more contrast and see how that looks, maybe you could try cropping a little more off the top and see how that looks, etc.
Then if you come to the point of being able to actually do critiques, fine. If you don't, fine. But you can do yourself and the poster a world of good by just commenting specifically on what you like and what you might try differently.
So I'm you, Lori. I have no $$ and I, too, feel inadequate and sometimes stupid, but not because of photography. NPN is the place for you to be. Post your image and ask questions about it. Tell people what you're not sure of. Ask people what they would do differently. If you ask specific questions you'll get specific answers.
I realize this reply is very long, but I think I maybe one of the people here that knows exactly what you're talking about and how you feel. I wish you the very best with your life and your photography.
I fully understand where you're coming from, and I appreciate you having the guts to "spill your guts" about your supposed inadequacies when it comes to critiquing others. I used the term supposed not to belittle you in any way, but to point out you are more than adequate for the task. So you haven't been formally trained, neither have I. So you're not Ansel Adams, neither are any of the rest of us. So you aren't familiar with your Sony camera yet, you can learn (order a book from Amazon or pull up YouTube). The one thing I can assure you of is that you are capable of giving critiques; perhaps not when it comes to certain techniques you don't yet understand or haven't mastered yet, but you're capable of telling someone what you like or don't like about an image. You have an opinion, and that opinion is valid; you shouldn't be ashamed of it and you have every right to have that opinion whether or not somebody else may agree or disagree. Believe it or not, you may learn a little from others critiquing your work, but you will learn exponentially more from critiquing others work. Start small, get your feet wet with some "trite" comments (very nice, looks greats, etc.) After a week of that, expand your critiques to include "very nice, and this is WHY I like it, or this is WHAT I like about it" This will force you to study other's work and really see why and what you appreciate in their photography (is it the colors, the composition, the subject matter, the lighting, etc.). From that, put what you have learned from other's work into practice in your own photography. Look for the small details in other's work that makes the image a failure or success for you. Don't be afraid to mention that to the other photographer, it might be just the thing they need to hear to make them a better photographer. Once you begin issuing critiques it will become easier and easier and your confidence will grow, and your photography should improve as well. I think most of us felt the exact same apprehension when we first began giving critiques but that feeling fades quickly. Jump in, the waters fine, and your fellow NPN'ers will help you along.
I've read your comment here and also looked at the post you'd made where others mentioned the point about your CP (comment-post) ratio. I found all of the points of encouragement from others about the need to do more commenting to be excellent and well thought out.
Please keep in mind, & like you, many of us have never had any formal training with regard to photography. With that said, the learning curve never ends. Professionals will admit to that point, although their learning curve by now would be extremely narrower and more specialized no doubt.
I would say that NPN has been a strong catalyst for helping most photographers who have participated here over time to a much higher level with regard to their own personal photographic skill levels. For some it was easier then for others. But I would think that very few would say that they did not improve their work over the long haul.
I think some of the stronger ideas or POV's around others improving their own work by commenting is extremely valid. IMO it truly enhances ones skills in moving away from the WOW factor, to seeing the not so pretty parts that maybe strong negative points about an image. That keen eye can help prevent those same mistakes when performing our own work. In many cases it is not just looking at the images, it is really taking time to read the input by others to see if you notice the same points being made. So, a mere acknowledgment comment about the same point is part of the learning process. Eventually, when you start to see items that others may not have noticed, good or bad, you will have moved to a new level.
Bill, thanks for the encouragement. I can't believe you've had no formal training. Your work is top notch! And I've been remiss in telling you so. Thank you once again.
Paul, your note seems to make it unanimous that I am not using NPN to get the most out of it. So, if I ask I truly dumb, basic question, for instance about f stops and dof, I'll get honest answers and not be laughed out of town? (my fear, no one has ever said that). BTW...love your hummie logo, I have one, also.
It's been a bad morning here. You have all brought some sunshine into my window. I was ready to quit. Maybe I'll stick around and give the critiquing a whirl.
Much obliged,
Lori
Those are exactly the kinds of questions people who know the answers to them like. They're specific questions about aspects of photography that don't change.
You can also ask questions about the more personal aspects, like do you think this is too dark or too light, and you might get different answers from different people, but that's okay, too. Then you'll know kind of what the general opinion is and you can make your own decision.
But the truly basic questions you mentioned? Yes. People will love them.
1. Be you. Don't compare or measure yourself against other photographers (or people in general for that matter.) I love and admire Bill Chambers work and lots of other folks here on NPN. But I don't want to be Bill. I want to be me. That makes us all unique. I love Harley's signature quote: "You were born an original. Don't die a copy."
2. Remove "critique" from your vocabulary. It's a stuffy word anyway. Really, all a critique is, is an opinion. We all have them. It's perfectly fine to comment and tell someone that you like an image and perhaps even why you like it. It's understood by most that if you don't feel you have the technical experience to offer suggestions for improvement, then there's no reason to you to offer any. That's ok. Over time, you learn using the "guilt by association" method. for example, someone suggests cropping an image, that might make you take note and whether you say or not, you can make your own judgment on whether you think a crop would improve an image.
3. Comment:Post ratio. It's a number and frankly maybe we should get rid of it. My own take on that is that it's not really about the number or ratio. It's about participation, engagement and community. If a member participates and engages with other members, asks questions, solicits feedback (not assuming, but really asking,) then they deserve to be helped, coached, encouraged, etc. It's when that ratio is combined with silence, no interaction, no solicitation, no contribution, etc. etc., then the number stands out like a sore thumb.
4. Learning. Clearly you have the desire and drive to learn. Perhaps, all you need is to jump over that little confidence hump. It's all out there for you. But you do NOT have to learn it all to improve. Learn one thing at a time. Knowledge alone however doesn't guarantee improvement, right? for example, for a long time here on NPN there's been discussions about posters providing technical data (camera, lens, settings, etc.) for two reasons: One, so a viewer has a reference to perhaps help and make suggestions and two, so that others may learn HOW and image was taken. The concern for some, is that by providing the technical data, some may just run with it, without learning WHY the settings or equipment was used. Here's a simple, made up example. You see an image posted that really strikes you, it's a beautiful landscape, just after sunset, the earth's shadow creating a lovely pink hue on the horizon.... In the post they include: Nikon D700, Tamron 24-135mm lens, ISO 800, f/25 at 1sec. And you conclude that ISO 800 and f/25 will give you great results for landscapes. I'm not saying you or anyone would, but there are just too many variables to glean anything really from the technical info. IMHO.
5. Go at your own pace. There are no timelines - only the ones you set for yourself. ENJOY the journey and try not to be hard on yourself cause you're not where you want to be - yet. But where you are now is all that matters.
As others have suggested, figure out why you like an image and mention that. Improving your images to a large extent is paying attention to lots of little details. You have to teach yourself how to notice those details before you can teach yourself how to address them.
Read the comments others post. When NPN works best, each image is a little case study in how to make an image. Terrific nature hotographers who sell their advice in seminar will comment on your photos, almost for free. All you have to do is pay it forward by commenting on others' images.
And keep taking and posting images. Any number of photographers here will tell you it's all about practicing what you learn.
Second, you don't have to have had formal training or be an advanced photographer or, indeed, a photographer at all, to comment on images. As noted previously, most people here have not had any formal training. NPN comment guidelines basically say to just say what you like and don't like about the photograph. Anyone can do that. Or, just say whay you like if you don't want to "critique" the image or be negative. I will also add that it is often valuable for people who post images to get the opinions of non-photographers on what they like and don't like about a photograph.
Third, I note that you have been award several WPs in your time at NPN, and your photography suggests that you are not new to photography. I also now see that you have a Linked in page that indicates that you are an aspiring professional photographer with 10 years experience, and also lists some photography awards and associations, so I think you may be understating your ability to participate and contribute.
Although NPN is a social and community forum with participation guidelines, what a member gets from NPN is mostly on him or her. There is a lot more to NPN than posting images. In my comment to your image post, I was simply suggesting ways for you to get more out of NPN because you say you are here to learn. Studying images, commenting on images, reading and considering comments other people make on images (both on your own and others) are all ways to get more out NPN. Also, if you take the time to comment on other images, then people will be more inclined to reciprocate, and vice-versa. To be clear, however, the extent to which anyone chooses to participate is their own decision.
My advise is don't let your self doubt stop you. Your critiques will feel shallow in the beginning but your ability to see and critique will grow.
Yes, Scott I have been playing with cameras for several years, I have won a couple of competitions locally and within my camera club.
But I stopped growing. I have learned some things from FB groups, camera club, but I feel I should be further ahead in the game. I'm sure you are all right, and I should stop whining and jump in and test the waters. I will. Be gentle with me, but be honest, please?
I cannot express how grateful I am for all your support and encouragement.
So...let's move forward with a backpack full of great advice...
Thank you so much
<3 Lori
Real growth is seeing more profoundly. It's what takes place before clicking the shutter release, before even picking up the camera. Most good writers that I've read say that you can't get better by shooting more or even wanting to get better. You just have to be more fully engaged with your surroundings and you will eventually start to respond internally in a more profound way. Good images just show what's in you. Superficial images are about the subject whereas good images is how you feel about the subject. Growth is going from the first to the second and continuously exploring the second. The above comments refer to landscape photography and may not apply to macro, avian, etc.
Excellent observation, Igor. I agree 100%, and I think it applies to all types of nature photography if done as a medium of art (i.e., trying to show the beauty of nature through art).
Lori, like many others on here, I don't have any formal training, either. I have never taken a photography class of any kind. How did I start? After I got out of college (many, many years ago), I bought a Nikon SLR. I bought a book by John Shaw, a great nature photographer. I read that book over and over and over. This was a WAY before digital, so I kept a little notebook where I wrote down all the tech specs for every single photo I took. When I got the pictures back, I compared the specs to each photo. What was the shutter speed for that one? What was the f-stop? I did not use AUTO; I forced myself to makes decisions about each photo I took.
I understand completely what you say about your Sony have a lot of bells and whistles, believe me. I bought a Fuji X-T1 last year, and it had plenty of fancy stuff on it. I simply did not use most of it. This year, I went on a family trip with lots of airplane time, so I finally took the manual for that camera along and read every single page. I had the camera along, too, so I could check out all the directions. Don't worry if it takes you a while to learn all those bells and whistles. Learn the absolute basics: shutter speed, f-stop, depth-of-field, ISO... The really cool thing about digital cameras is that you can look at the image nice and big on your computer screen while looking at all the settings you used, so you can see the relationship between all those.
Now, as to commenting here on NPN. I think Bill Chambers said it....just look at the image and think WHAT do I like about it? WHY do I like that? And don't be afraid to ask yourself "What do I NOT like about it?" It really is that simple. Read through all the comments and note what everyone else says. And yes, sometimes it IS hard to figure why you like an image. Sometimes it's the first impression, or the overall impact of an image that gets to us. Other times, it's the details, the tiny little things you see as your eye wanders through an image. Personally, I look at images from the viewpoint of how they would look hanging on a wall. I do this because I like printed images, and do my own printing. However, many people primarily view images on digital media, and that's a whole different way to think of images.
Sometimes we (mostly) all agree on an image, but you will notice that quite often, comments will be split. Photographs are very, very subjective.
I understand also your comment about your camera club. I went through that same thing. Feel free to move beyond them, and find all the different ways to keep learning and improving, and plenty of those ways are cheap or free!! The internet has lots of information; sometimes is can just be hard to find what you need. Search through photographer's images to find ones you like, and then see if that person has a blog. This is a great way to see how they approach their images, and many times they put really helpful information in there. I don't remember which camera you said you have, but try to find a users forum about it, and go from there.
I am one of the people on here who really believes the give and take of posting and commenting is extremely important. We are all busy, and I am not going to spend my time commenting on someone's images when they do not put in the effort to comment on other's posts. Is commenting hard? Yes, it can be. Many times I struggle to find something to say. I find that, for me, that first impression is best. What do I say to myself when I first see the image? Usually, I try to write something before I ever look at the other comments, but sometimes I'm not sure, and I go read what others have said. And you know what? Many times I will go back to the image with a fresh outlook.
Keep at it. I think several other people on here have touched on this, but there are several very different aspects of photography that you can learn here on NPN. First, there is the technical aspect. Focus, composition, exposure, all that stuff. Then, there is the style, or the type of photography : macro, photo-art, HDR, highly colored, pure wildlife, just to name a few. There are world-class photographers on here, and the more you can interact with them, the more you can learn about both the technical side and the style. Keep at it!