Hello, is anybody home?

I haven't been taking any pictures in several months now but I still come to the forum to see what's happening..apparently, not much. This used to be the most active forum in all of NPN but now several days go by with no activity. Are we taking less pictures or just getting bored with the forum. I'd love to hear comments.

Speaking for myself, Jack, my job has put a damper on my travel opportunities for the past couple of years, and 2015 may be the same. Being back East (DC area), I can't get to the Rockies and westward on a weekend. I have to plan at least 2 weeks of free time when driving from DC to Denver and back takes 7 or 8 days in itself.

Now, those folks that live in the Rockies, may have different reasons.

Hi Jack,
Same here, finally got back to work for now, My hours are are all over the place, I work most weekends. I haven't been out shooting since September. I too follow the forum and haven't seen much activity. Hopefully things will change in the spring for me.

I'm still at home, but have noticed the fewer knocks on the door.

Overall activity on NPN has dropped dramatically. I think there are too many other competing websites, i.e. 500px, FB, twitter, Instagram. NPN just isn't what it used to be, when it was pretty much the only name in the game. I still check in at RMNP from time to time but rarely post.

Ditto what Brett said. Although sometimes I like how npn is a little less social (probably not the right word, especially for a forum). The lack of likes, upvotes etc.. is kinda refreshing sometimes. Make it more about the image than the popularity, who can yell the loudest, etc. 500px and such seem to mainly focus on that and so images that fit whatever style is trending seem stay on top..sometimes making everything look so very similar in regards to processing styles etc.. (enough Loften or Iceland anyone? :) of course there are good aspects as well. and of course not doing those things is probably a terrible business practice, but..........

I've just been really busy with work etc.. like the others.

It is unfortunate on the lack of postings on the forum, primarily for those of us needing recommendations to improve our craft. Frankly, the other sites aren't really the proper venue for critique. As mentioned, they are a popularity contest. Additionally, they also are a marketing tool for the pros trying to make a living. I get it.
However, NPN should be THE place to get blunt and honest opinions. It is interesting that some images may get hundreds of views, but only a couple of actual critiques. Not sure what is up with that. But it seems the "pros" on this site are focused on now on marketing as one would probably expect. Accepting that, I would still expect plenty of us "amateurs" could be a little more active.
Another issue with the site is how the images are displayed. I suspect it could be my lack of knowledge on how to properly prepare an image for web display, but clearly the 720 image size doesn't display like I intend. Something else is going on with the compression as well.
That all said, this site has been invaluable for me in improving the quality of my images. Another HUGE advantage is the off topic discussions about gear, software, and most of all, photo locations! In fact, I can honestly say I avoided getting stuck on the way to White Pockets by heeding the advice provided on this site!

I rarely come here anymore because of the things that Bret mentioned. I really care about all the people here, but I think this format is no longer functional. I would actually like it if we formed a Facebook group that comprised the RMNP membership http://www.facebookgroups.com. I think the format would actually be more appropriate for discussion and image sharing. I find that doing anything on here from sharing a link to posting an image is challenging. Most of my uploads are rejected because of size and so I need to go back, re-size and retry a couple of times until it takes and then I'm not really happy with the result. This forum unfortunately has become quite antiquated and not kept up with the changing technology. I still think NPN could thrive, but the format would have to change dramatically and would have to be a part of existing social networking architecture that almost all of us are using daily. I don't think NPN is alone. Every forum that I was previously involved with has nearly died as a result of the changes. I think the answer is not to try to keep making the horse and cart work, but rather to rethink everything based on a clear understanding of the groups goals and distinctives. In my mind that means abandoning the traditional "forum" structure and finding a more appropriate structure to maintain those things. Very few forums have been willing to do this. They just grind on until they eventually die. Again, I think NPN could thrive, but it would take a complete re-think about what it means to be NPN.

Erik, The added benefit to the FB groups is that it would be free. Plus you can create links to your own site. Are there size and pixel constraints? I think it could be a good source for the types of critiques that Ken is talking about. This forum was instrumental in the early days for me because people took the time to give me honest critiques and it made me a better photographer. Definitely worth thinking about...maybe we can get some more input. One of the things that bothered me a bit was no photo contest this year and who nows if there will be a shindig...these are a couple things that really held this forum together over the years.

During my 10 year membership, RMNP has allowed me to meet many wonderful people, who also happen to be great photographers. A few have become very close friends.

Since the start of the paid membership requirement to even post comments, RMNP activity has steadily declined.
As interests, available time, and needs change it is natural to expect members to leave. Unfortunately the current business model has not attracted enough new membership to maintain a critical mass.

I would certainly support Erik's suggestion for a free alternative. I'd prefer Google over FB, but I've avoided social networks, so I can't discuss the pros or cons.

Along the same lines with what everyone else is saying...for my part, this is the busy time at work and since late July I've been traveling 4 or 5 days every week. I always carry a camera with me and do quite a bit of shooting but it's mostly travel photography and a lot of architecture so I end up posting mostly on other platforms like FB and Google +. I enjoy the friendships I've made through this forum but I did think long and hard before renewing my membership last month. Some of the things I enjoy most have almost ceased to exist. Group shoots, coffee get together, those kinds of things. I know we're all busy but it seems like without the face to face interactions this is becoming just another website.

Bill P., I think you can set up what they call a closed group so you don't get a bunch of unwanted or nasty posts. You would ask to join and a moderator or creator (not me) would approve the request and watch the member page to make sure it stays within group guidelines. I think there are limitations on image size but it's free and a way to keep in touch. You can also do an open membership page like Front Range Landscape photography which has about 400 members....all things to consider.

I've just been really busy & not out shooting. Most time/energy consuming has been dealing with FEMA wanting their $$ back from flood repairs..... I've really learned a lot from the photo critiques on the forum & many of the OT subjects. Seeing the same names from a relatively small group of somewhat local folks has made it feel more like a family than the much bigger websites. I admit that I've been pressed for time enough that the effort of making the specific compressions needed to post here has dissuaded me more than once. I've been posting on Google+, but have been getting really tired of the number of selfies, T&A and generally poor quality shots being posted there. Being one of the few without a FB account (I just don't see why they need the information they require to set up an account), I'd miss out if NPN went to FB.

A friend pointed me to NPN landscape forum 2-3 years ago, and it's been the single most helpful thing for my development as a photographer than probably anything else. I don't post much to the RMNP forum but view the topics often. Over this time though I have noticed a gradual but marked decrease in activity, and it makes me a little sad. I used to read about meet-ups and such and looked forward to the day when I could join some of you guys and gals out in the these amazing places I was just discovering. Discussions of those kinds of get-togethers rarely happen on this forum now.

I understand the diluting of activity here because of all the other online options (and sometimes we just get busy), but it seems like NPN/RMNP could be a niche for more focused development and connections. All I get from 500px and Facebook are lots of pats on the back, but that doesn't help me improve (except my man John Mumaw… he'll still tactfully tell me what's wrong with my images on 500px).

I agree with what's been said about the need for a format change, or perhaps a parallel FB group, or anything else that will help facilitate the kind of exchanges and real networking that used to happen here more often. I feel a little sad that I seem to have missed the "good old days" on this forum, but that's not to say the tide couldn't turn back again.

Like many others have commented, a combination of moving and increased job demands/responsibilities have meant that my photography has gone way down in the last year or two. (And frankly, on a personal level, that leaves me a little depressed, which makes me less likely to come in and comment on any new work that does get posted. But that's another story.)

The great strength of NPN, when it was working, was the combination of enthusiasm of new members, advice of more experienced members, and the advice and nifty connections of a couple of pro members. I appreciated the sharing of information about known areas and the respect that was shown to lesser-traveled locations. I was even able to meet up with a few people (despite living in the middle of rural Utah -- Jared, I'm sorry you weren't active before I moved).

I'll agree with Erik that the posting limits are frustrating. Particularly to panoramics.

The "problem", as Ken points out, is that NPN was the best place to hear realistic critique of your work, and no other place has really stepped up to supplant it -- at least not that I've found. (And if you think the Rocky Mountain section is quiet, go poke around in some of the other regional forums like PNW!)

Monika, if we did shift to FB, you can always invent information that you don't care to share with them... But I agree that if we decide to go that way, it should be restricted somehow. I'm not comfortable being the one who decides *how* it gets restricted, though.

Jack, thanks for bringing up the topic. Seems like a lot of people have noticed.

I agree 100% with all of the above comments. Ive been whining for a few years about the file size limitations, and the weird compression that accompanies the tiny files. I also want to echo Kens comment concerning the lack of critique when an image has 100-300 views. People are stopping by, having a look, but not commenting and that's concerning.

Most, if not everything I know about photography comes from NPN, and about 80% of that comes from this forum. I will always and forever have a tremendous respect for the photographers of the RMNP, many of them I continue to communicate with via email or FB.

Bottom Line, I miss this forum and the critique. I miss the people, and I would be the first one to show at the gathering in Feb if we can manage to make it happen again.

I also like Eriks facebook idea, but it won't work unless we all make the effort to comment. FB is so easy to use and the images look great. Count me in if we go the facebook route and I promise to often comment!

I also endorse a move to a (closed?) FB group. There has been unbelievable talent in this group that had a refreshing voice and vision. It is worth preserving. Many folks now post regularly to FB, myself included, but I do miss the unique exchanges that were often here. Does someone want to take a crack at starting a group and see how it goes? One other advantage is that everyone has it on their phones so it is easy to monitor and it would be very easy to share things from our own pages to the group page.

OK. I'll look into setting up a FB group. I would like to run this past Jim Erhardt for obvious reasons though. Stay tuned.

I agree with a lot of the points that have already been made. The traffic here is clearly on a steep downslope (I'm just as guilty for not posting). There are many other options out there (500px, Twitter, Facebook, etc) that are arguably a better format. Certainly the sizing limitations here are hurting. This used to be the go to place for honest critique, but the small pics and compression seriously hinder that review process. The fee doesn't help either. I have no qualms about paying for a site that features such great talents, honest critiques, etc. Its not a large sum. But a clearly dying site? Even given an ability to post higher quality photos, is someone new going to do so when other options are free? If it were my site and I wanted to see it back to "the old days", I'd do a few things...

First, the aforementioned sizing. Larger, higher quality photo posting is a must.
Two, if not free altogether, I'd offer people a free membership for either a certain time or a number of posts. A free month to post? 25 posts? Get people in the door.
Third, hit social media. Even if its a Facebook/Twitter account run by the admins and/or owners that push a "featured thread" or "photo of the week" type of thing. Again, get people here.

I've certainly enjoyed my time here and at the meets, I have met some great people because of this site. That said, if the site stays the same and on the same trajectory, I likely won't be renewing. I'd love to see this place take off and be great again, but time will tell.

As the current owner of TravelPhotographers.net (born out of NPN), I can confirm all of the above assertions. In particular, social media sites are very captivating. Once a person logs in there, they tend to not want to leave it to log into yet another site to interact with people. And it is very hard for a site like NPN or TPN to compete with "free". Yahoo gives you 1TB of free storage because they have other vast revenue streams to offset their costs. A dedicated site like NPN or TPN simply cannot do that.

Some possible improvements would include social media integration like authentication using your Facebook or Google+ ID to make it easier to get into the site, offering a trial period with full rights to experience what paid membership brings, offering some free features and reserving other features for paid members, finding alternative ways to offset the cost of running the site and paying for articles such that the cost barrier to membership stays as low and attractive as possible, and lastly finding unique offerings that attract people. That last part is really hard when you are one or a handful of people who are competing against armies of developers at Facebook or Google or other social media sites.

If you really believe in the value of NPN and what it brings to you, you have to invest in it by helping support it through membership fees and by your deliberate active participation. Sites like this are only as strong as the membership who support it. I encourage you to think long and hard about going to a Facebook group and the impact that might have to this site.

Everyone, thanks for posting your thoughts on the status of this forum. I want you to know that as your mods, Bob and I hear your thoughts and suggestions, and take them to heart. We have talked and discussed some ideas we have and have reached out to Jim Erhardt and made him aware of this thread and look forward to hearing from him soon.

For those wondering about social media, NPN does have a Facebook page and Twitter feed, but I will agree there isn't much there.

Speaking for myself, I can say that I, too, have benefited GREATLY from this forum. I have learned much and made friends with many good people here. But also like many of you have noted, jobs and family life leave less time for recreation. It was evident to me that folks had less free time when I floated the idea of a few group events, but didn't get much buy-in. In my case, I became president of the largest park in Colorado Springs. It required FAR more time than I anticipated.
I'll take responsibility for probably not devoting as much time here as my position of moderator deserved.

As for a shindig, it is my intention to do one, and I'm starting to work on setting it up. I hope you will all attend.

Like Joshua, I have not have a problem paying for access to RMNP. But, as we have seen, maintaining a critical mass for this regional forum has not been possible with the current fee structure.

One may argue that other factors contribute, but the steady decline started with the fees. Prior to the fees we had over 30 people interested in participating in a library photo show. Six months later, after the fees, there were about 8 people who submitted images, and a number of these were not even among the original 30 ! Needless to say, after coordinating 4 shows, I haven't bothered attempting another group show.

At the time the fees were announced, I know several people suggested allowing unlimited comments with no fees. I would also strongly recommend allowing one image post every two (?) weeks, to get people involved initially. Jim did compromise by allowing a reduced fee for membership in a single regional forum. Well, how has that worked ??

I've been wondering the same thing about this forum; I've seen the activity dwindling steadily over the past years but this year in particular it really seems to be stuck in the doldrums.

I agree with others that a big reason for this is the recent dramatic increase in alternative venues with vastly superior interfaces (and free). Google+ comes to mind; it has attracted a large mass of photographers and the interface is a pleasure to browse through. Of course valuable feedback and critique there is nearly non-existent (same goes with Facebook). But in any case, our time has to be split amongst all these different social networks, not to mention maintaining our own websites, blogs, businesses... lives.... After all that I am left with less and less time for NPN, both commenting and posting.

In addition, motivation to do so has faded correspondingly, given the restrictive image posting guidelines. Do I really want to resize and prepare yet another web jpg file at 720px just for posting to NPN? Oftentimes not. Just don't have the time or will to maintain a presence on all these venues, much less adjust my web files specially for one.

The lack of participation is a downward spiraling trend - with less people participating, there's less incentive to participate. Unfortunately I'd wager that to reverse that trend would be a monumental task involving some major fundamental overhauls to the NPN website architecture, including a total front-end facelift to allow for significantly larger photos. But it seems that this website is on cruise control and has been for many years now.

It's sad to see NPN dying like this, especially because it's the one website where there's real, personal interaction rather than a random masses of people, or a numbers game of views, likes, or plusses.

Great remarks and feedback everyone. I got the go-ahead from Jim Erhart to create a RMNP Facebook Group page. It's a closed group so membership is limited to current and past members for the most part. If there are others you would like to invite let me know- this would probably be best to keep it from morphing into just another FB photography group. The FB address is https://www.facebook.com/groups/NPN.RMNP/ I went ahead and added some of you to get the ball rolling. Feel free to suggest or invite others that are or have been a part of RMNP as many of you have been active in the group much longer than I have. Take a minute and post something on the page to alert the others that you got the message.

Hi,
I'll give my perspective. I've been reading NPN for a couple of years and because of RMNP decided to join. But the price was high for the seemingly low traffic, especially compared to other sites. I do not find the organization of this site all that ideal. I want to know where I left off reading a thread so I can jump to the new posts for me. Other sites have that feature (e.g. see naturescapes.net, and there are regional subgroups there). When I joined, I looked for paying for a lifetime membership here, but did not see one. With the low traffic, I'm not sure I'll renew.

Alternatives: I do not like facebook, do not have an FB account and would not participate in such a group. Do check out their policy if you post an image; don't they claim they can use it for anything?

I participate in several groups/forums/websites. What I find most convenient is yahoogroups. It can be by invite, or request to join, and people put on moderation until they show they are reasonable. Why I like yahoogroups is you can get it by email. I have filters set up so traffic for a group goes into a folder. Thunderbird easily organizes conversations so you can follow a thread posts, and responses. People post links to their images so there is no need to upload. If this group were there, I would participate a lot more. There is also a files section so people who do not have web sites can use that. All free.

I see most web forums dropping in traffic over the last year or so, though NPN seems better on the trend. Check:
http://www.similarweb.com/website/naturephotographers.net
This seems to indicate traffic (NPN visitors) are pretty steady, but there sure aren't many postings).

I agree with the hassle of prepping images for postings. I considered doing several image postings here, but was too busy to format for yet another size and never got around to it. If it was just a simple link to my already completed image on my web site it would be much easier.

Roger Clark

Roger: Thanks for your input. There are lots of people who don't use Facebook. However, since we opened the page there, we've had a tremendous amount of participation, so something is working. I'm sorry we won't see you there.
In regards to your question about the rights of photos posted on Facebook, here is the policy:
Do I retain the copyright and other legal rights to material I upload to Facebook?
Yes, you retain the copyright to your content. When you upload your content, you grant us a license to use and display that content.

I understand that the policy may still be a cause for concern, however there are ways to protect yourself, such as watermarking, etc.

-Bob

Roger, I also have avoided Facebook until now, so I understand all of your reasons for not participating.
However, I found it works very well for our group and am really enjoying the experience, so I hope you change your mind and give it a try.

Facebook's terms of service (IP= Intellectual Property)
https://www.facebook.com/legal/terms

"...you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to use any IP content that you post on or in connection with Facebook (IP License). This IP License ends when you delete your IP content or your account unless your content has been shared with others, and they have not deleted it."

"When you publish content or information using the Public setting, it means that you are allowing everyone, including people off of Facebook, to access and use that information..."

Key words there are transferable and royalty-free.

Roger

FWIW, I have not spent much time on NPN or RMNP forum due to a lot of travel for photography, but also because there were a few posts where folks were asking for input and it seemed like there was nothing but a barrage of negativity, insults or such and that turned me off!

There are a lot of great folks on RMNP, so I would like to keep in touch, C&C others' work, etc. I did just submit my request to join the FB group, though I am concerned about FB's ToS for Intellectual Property (which seems to be getting ever-worse).

Pete Miller, as one of the moderators on this forum, I'd like for you to share the instances of negativity and insults that you're referring to. Myself and Bob Miller have been vigilant on this site, and haven't noted anything of that sort, nor has anyone brought it to our attention. However, if' we've missed something, please point it out to us and we can deal with it appropriately.

While FB's TOS regarding posted content is certainly not ideal by any stretch, you do still own the content. As I noted in an earlier post, there are a number of methods available to make the re-use of your content impractical.

Regarding the whole facebook thing, my understanding (perhaps flawed) is that if you post a link to your image, rather than posting the image directly on FB, you can avoid the scenario of granting FB the rights to use it. It also allows you to display the image at a larger size of your own choosing on your own page (FB images seem too small to critique unless I'm missing some way to show them larger).

Some great comments here about what has been an unfortunate decline here at NPN. I can say it is worse over CSNP where we are down to what seems less than ten people. Wish you had not selected FB for social media. G+ and even Flickr seem like better formats. I will still be here and watching what you do from the south plains.