Preston and I have been kicking a concept around that we want to consider - paid mentoring. It would work something like this;
1. A member would sign up with a mentor of a period of time for a fee that gets paid directly to the mentor.
2. The mentor would then provide personalized critique on photos and offer their guidance online and off to help the student.
3. Mentors would be limited to NPN staff
4. We would have a Mentor section in the Staff menu
5. All that NPN requires is a paid membership
6. The fee structure would be the same for all mentors.
7. The basic services offered by each mentor would be similiar, but we'd leave room for each mentor to taylor their own program.
As starting point, we can consider $95 for a month and perhaps $249 for 3 months. We can finalize the actual fee by a consensus.
We would need to offer a money-back trial period. For the online courses, we allowed students to cancel up to 14 days after the course started for a full refund. This worked well and we had very few drop out.
The mentor having a PayPal account would make it all easier to collect the fee and refund it if needed.
Let's starting collectively kicking this idea around!
Jim: The idea certainly intrigues me. Might help me pay for my habit and be fun as well. I suspect there will be more demand for some folks than others but so it goes. Will a mentor's load be limited or just be up to him/her? What basic services will the service provide? Just a couple things off the top of my head.
I would definitely be interested in this. Of course I will have questions. First, the boundaries and expectations have to be set and defined. How many images? How much time does the paying client get? an hour a week? Phone time, etc.? I'm sure it will be up to the individual mentor how much or how many mentees they want to take on, but there still would need to be some consistent rules/guidelines and expectations set. We've all dealt with folks who could ask a million questions and such the life out any mentoring session, workshop, etc. While others need to be prodded to ask questions.
I enjoy helping the beginner and have worked with numerous members offline over the years. Would be great to get some extra cash!
Not that I want to give away money, but if NPN is going to provide some sort of infrastructure or acting as a gateway to this service, including setting up guidelines, have a forum/gallery, whatever, shouldn't there be a percentage getting kicked back to NPN? Can't say what that percentage would be.... but thought I would toss that out there too.
There would need to be a place on NPN where the list of Mentors and their services would be listed. Obviously we would have to list the skillsets or areas we would like to mentor. for example, I would obviously NOT offer multi-focus stacking or multi-expsure bracketing, hdr, ACR, Lightroom, etc. etc., while others might excel at that. This allows the members to more closely fit the services to their needs.
Sounds like a great idea to me! I would be very interested. I agree with Lon, though, some boundaries and expectations need to be set. I hope Guy is willing to chime in, if not participate, since I believe he does a lot of this sort of mentoring on his own. He might have some suggestions for how to structure those expectations in a fair way.
Lon - to some extent there is an implicit benefit to NPN, which is that this program might entice people to join NPN in order to gain access to the mentoring program. But I would certainly not be opposed to something getting kicked back to NPN.
Good point about the benefit to NPN Floris, hadn't considered that. One thing I would suggest that would probably require some expense on Jim's part, and that would be perhaps subscribing to some collaborating service like WebEx where desktops can be shared, a conference line is included, etc. File storage and transfer of images between parties, etc. A number of things to consider. In other words, for some sort of consistent service, it would make sense. I would probably be less interested in setting up the logistics for something like this. And if NPN provided it, well, it will cost something. Just tossing out some thoughts.
Guy would certainly be a great resource for suggestions. In fact that prompted me to go take a peek at his site and blog. Now I know he used to provide a one-on-one service, portfolio review - something like $1200 for a monthly review/mentoring for up to a year, and I think multiple different options. But interestingly, I couldn't find that anywhere on this site or blog. Anyway, I know he's booked doing workshops for a while longer, but I think could still provide some insight.
I would like to participate in this if we are able to get it off the ground. I'm currently working with an NPN member via iChat (we're both Mac people) tutoring Photoshop and Lightroom. We get together at least every other week based on schedules, sometimes weekly.
I agree we need to be very clear on expectations, services offered and time commitments.
I believe the future of NPN - set in light of today's competition from sites like 500PX - will need to transition to services not offered elsewhere. What we have going for us is deep talent on the NPN staff and some deep respect for it. The future of NPN - which exists by selling memberships - hinges on this.
I don't know about the rest of you, but if NPN didn't offer Donna and I some (at least meager) financial benefits, I surely could find other more enjoyable things to do with my time. Somehow, I suspect you all feel the same - or can relate to some degree to that statement.
So, how can we leverage NPN to help you - the true soul and talent of the site - earn some compensation for your time and get people to buy NPN memberships at the same time?
Here is what I envision (in rather broad terms);
A program where talented and respected photographers offer their personalized mentoring to help those who are in the market for such a service.
Each of these mentors could have a subdomain (example - http://lonoveracker.naturephotographers.net) that they could manage and upload directly to using their own unique FTP log in.
Or instead of the above, a more in-depth Staff Profile page where they can list the services they offer (I think the subdomain approach above is preferable).
There would be a menu listing of all of the mentors with links to their subdomain or staff profile.
What you offer is entirely up to you, the only thing we'll set up front is pricing and the basic services offered.
Basic services;
1. Personalized critique of (x number) of images per duration of mentoring service of photos posted on NPN.
2. Offline communication with student to offer advice, give help, etc. (not all of the tutoring should in the form of a critique in a public forum).
3. There would need to be a set time for 100% refund if not satisfied. With the online courses (which lasted about 6 weeks), a student could cancel up to 14 days after the starting date for a full refund. After that, no refunds are provided.
From there, you are free to offer anything else you would want to do. While pricing per duration would be set the same for all mentors and the basic services listed above would be the same, each mentor is free to offer more (competition is good).
Each mentor could list a specialty area (landscape, wildlife, Photoshop, etc.).
Payment for all services go directly to the mentor - you would provide a link on your mentoring service page to your PayPal account.
So, NPN becomes a platform where each mentor could offer their mentoring services and perhaps build a decent little business doing so, and in the process help build NPN membership.
<end long ramble>
Comments, questions, suggestions? Let's make this happen!
I like that model, Jim, where some part of the critiques are on the public forum. This would help generate better critiques by members by setting a good example of what they should look like, and at the same time may get members interested in joining the paid mentorship program if they like what they see, and want to get critiques like that themselves!
In the spirit of full disclosure, those critiques should probably be labeled as being "paid for" in some way.
Part of the basic service should be on how to provide a good critique - sort of a critique of critique. Perhaps the students should be required to critique their own photos as well.
Perhaps the students should be required to critique their own photos as well.
I think that's a great idea to include self-critique, but I'm not sure I would make it a requirement. I can just hear the comment, "you mean I paid XX bucks to critique my own photos?" Even though of course we would be providing a critique. I do think it would be a good exercise to include in the mentoring and critique process.
Just thinking out loud to get some thoughts, I'm thinking of perhaps a 3 Tiered offering.
Tier 1 - 12-image portfolio review (10-15 images total?) This would include in depth critique, commentary, suggestions and recommendations for improvement. Limited email exchange and very limited actual tutoring or mentoring. This would be primarily a portfolio review. $50-$75? Where I might spend just an hour or two for the review and critique.
Tier 2 - One Month mentoring. Includes the 12 image portfolio review and 4, 1hr mentoring/tutoring sessions (via phone and collaboration tool like WebEx or equivalent.) At least $99
Tier 3 - The 3 month deal. Include the portfolio review, maybe increase to 20 images? weekly/bi-weekly? with more topic driven sessions, homework (assignments) perhaps.
I think the subdomain idea with ftp capability would work best. Additionally as I mentioned, I think it would be required for the tier 2 & 3 session to have some collaborative tool where screens can be shared and processing techniques could be shared.
Yeah, was wondering about that Floris, 4hrs at 100 is $25/hr wage... ;-) And that 4hrs didn't include the time spent on the portfolio. At this point though, I have no idea what the market price is for this kind of service.
Tier 0 - $14.95 per photo, professional critique. We could create a template for the critique for consistency and so that buyers would know what they're getting. This would also allow quicker/more efficient writing of the critique by the mentor.
Teir 1 - $99 for professional critique of 10 photos over 14 days, which would be posted in main NPN galleries for critique. Within those 14 days, student has option to upgrade to higher tier for difference in cost.
Tier 2 - $249. These tiers should include what Lon has suggested as well as having the student write 5 critiques themselves (they could pick any photo posted to critique).
Not sure about the Tier 0. A member I think expects they should get a critique in the galleries because they've already paid a membership fee to post and get critiqes. It's kinda like saying, pay $14.95 for a "real" critique.
I think the focus should be more on mentoring, which of course includes critiques. I would opt for "Portfolio Review" rather than "professional critique." The service value needs to be distinguished from what they think they are already getting with membership.
"which would be posted in main NPN galleries for critique." Is this in addition to the custom, personalized critique from the mentor? Not sure where you're going with this. Members can already post in the main galleries.
Lon, I was just thinking that the photos the customer wants critiqued should be posted in the main forums. Otherwise, if sent via email for critique, NPN membership serves no purpose. Additionally, this would give publicity to the mentoring services.
I don't like that we are now calling it a critique, that is what they get in the galleries. A mentorship is much more, I see it as a relationship where I help a photographer achieve specific goals, like the development of a certain project or the creation of a style of images.
Carl, understood. I'm just saying that IMO the critique part of the mentoring service should take place in the main galleries so that NPN membership is a value-added part of the service.
I'm fine if it happens offline - if so, what NPN resources would you want to use to conduct your mentoring services?
When I have done mentorships, the "student' had a goal that they wanted to attain, maybe a long term project, a book, or get published in a certain magazine. My job was to help them attain that goal. We could offer simple portfolio reviews at a low cost, but a mentorship is more involved.
Maybe each mentor could have a strength, I could offer something like, developing long term photography projects.
Jim, I agree with Carl, but even beyond that I'm not sure I like the critique portion in the public of the main galleries. I completely understand your desire to make this process visible. However, I'm not sure I would be that comfortable doing "detailed, professional" critiques open in the general membership. If it's in the public domain (which would be good publicity I agree,) then the value of the service that someone is shelling out money for, is offered to the general membership for no additional charge. The only difference is that it's the paying members image that's being critiqued. Say I spend a half an hour on one image. I offer suggestions, describe processing techniques, offer tips on composition, learning to see and recognize things, etc., etc., Then all that mentoring is out there for ALL, and no one paid for it. And the person who did is thinking they forked out money, but the advice and critique is for everyone?
Another reason I'm not all that comfortable with the idea is that if posted in a main gallery, then it's open for anyone to offer critiques, which may support my critiques and suggestions, but as we all know, there are many different opinions and just as likely folks could post opposing opinions, potentially undermining the service and maybe even the mentors credibility
Having said that, you could require as part of the service that the paying member post their final, edited and critiqued image with a note expressing their thoughts about the mentoring experience, what they learned, etc. But even that sounds forced. I'm certainly open to figure out a way to make the service visible, but at the same time keep the mentor-mentee relationship and tutoring, private. Which if I spend $250 for tutoring, I certainly would want all the attention on me and my learning experience. I'll have to think some more on how we could make it visible (ie. advertising and promoting the service.) Maybe some others have some ideas.
"A mentorship is much more, I see it as a relationship where I help a photographer achieve specific goals, like the development of a certain project or the creation of a style of images."
I think Carl is on the right track, here. The 'student' would have a specific goal in mind and the mentor would help them develop the objectives they would need to meet in order to attain that goal. The mentor would evaluate the results of each objective as it is attained to see if the 'student' was staying with the plan..
This may involve critique of images and/or a portfolio review by the mentor during the process, especially if the goal to develop a specific 'style' or to realize a specific project.
In light of Jim's comment above, some/all of the critique process should be in the IC galleries for the reason he states. Given the lengthy discussion regarding "What can be done to get interest in NPN up again?" in the General Discussion forum, doing some, if not all critiques in the IC galleries would go toward a visible response to this question.
As I see it, the mentor and the 'student' would be responsible for how they want to proceed. If the student and the mentor are comfortable with providing critiques in the main IC galleries, coupled with private communication, that's a good thing: There's a direct benefit to NPN and the 'student' is receiving the individual attention they need in order to meet their goal.
Jim et al: This kind of slipped my mind but I'm definitely interested. Thanks to you and the others who are much more familiar with professional issues for moving ahead on this. >=))>
If anyone is interested - in any shape or form - in doing this, please let me know! I am open to all ideas and suggestions but need to move on to other projects if this one is a non-starter.
Jim, just to confirm, I am very interested as well. I apologize, but haven't had time to get some specific services down on paper - or keyboard... ;-) Hopefully soon. I hope others are interested too, there will be a limit on how many clients we can handle at one time... ;-) And I'm assuming there will be folks very interested in a service like this.
Thanks Lon and all! I'm glad there is interest and I have no problem taking the time to formulate the best plan for success.
When you are ready let me know what would work for you and what you'd like to offer, and from there we'll put together a NPN program to promote all of it.
This is something I've done with folks that have approached me for mentoring/advise. I've done it for free in the past, so if it is charged for, it will obviously have more value... I'd be on board with the tier system you've outlined. Perhaps all of the moderators could post before and after images or different images from the same location to show what is possible with the skills we could teach. I would personally want to interact with exchanged files/images as well as over the phone. I think it might also be important to cast this net beyond the current membership and into the huge photo pool of the amateur photographers. Invite them into NPN via this teaching format. It could dramatically increase NPN participation and viewership.
Keywords and Metatags could be set up to bring the casual searcher tor photo instruction to NPN for instruction... this page could then be used to urge membership with the benefits of free critique and community.
Photography that's visible on the internet is starting to suffer from overload and malaise. The huge volume of great images everywhere has caused boredom. An enhanced degree of interaction between viewer and producer could offset this trend. Make the jump between someone showing great images and the person that wants to produce them, a simple and intimate process. This could change the nature of the site and it's community, but it might create a source of energy for a growth spurt for NPN.
I am interested, as well, Jim. Since I'm a BDOF (something Lon can confirm) I need some time to find my thoughts and then put them together. Seriously, I do need some time to figure this out.
I am interested in this effort as well. Sorry I didn't respond earlier as I was in Costa Rica leading a workshop. I haven't given the specific topics much thought, but initially I would be interested in detailed image critiques, LightRoom and Photoshop processing. It would fit nicely with work I do today here in Albuquerque on those topics.
I'm shifting my thinking on this away from it being so "NPN-centric."
I think all we (Donna and I) need to do is collect a list of services that each of you wish to offer and create a list of mentors to be promoted on the site. The student contacts you directly and each of you set up your own program, price structure, etc. in any way you wish.
I think we can send some business your way, and it will add to the value of NPN as a "nature photography resource" by doing so. All we ask in return is that you promote NPN membership, though membership will not be mandatory for anyone to use your services. Thoughts?
Jim: That would work for me but I've thought of another what if. What if a regular member (non-staff) wants to advertise as well? I hope this won't sound too self serving but could this be limited to NPN staff and perhaps regional mods? Since our pay is pretty low right now could we have some exclusivity?
Jim will correct me if I'm wrong, Bill, but my understanding is that the NPN staff would be the mentors if they so choose. I am unsure if the regional group moderators would be included, though. Jim?
--P
Posted by Jim Erhardt on June 10, 2013 at 11:18 AM
Bill, mentors will be NPN staff only.
Preston, though I think mentors will be primarily gallery moderators, I see no reason to exclude forum (including regional group) moderators.
So here is where we stand;
1. Those moderators who would like to offer mentoring services will be promoted on the site as a "NPN Mentor."
2. We will have a mentor section in the Staff menu, where mentors will create a profile and give an overview of their services and any specific areas they would like to focus on.
3. All mentoring fees will be paid directly to the mentor - NPN takes no cut.
4. Each mentor will determine their own services and exactly how they will offer it (email exchange, posting on NPN, face-to-face, etc.) and set their own fee schedules.
5. Mentors will promote NPN membership. Ideally (as long as none of you have an issue with this), anyone using your services will need to be a NPN member.
To get this rolling, create a list of services you would like to offer and set up a fee schedule. I will then add this to your Staff Profile and move your listing into the (yet to be created) Mentors section in the Staff menu.
Once we get this rolling, we will promote the "NPN Mentor Program" heavily on the site and on the NPN Facebook page.
Sorry I'm late to the party. I like the concept of mentoring for sure, but I'm not sure I have the available time to really participate much. I will certainly give it serious thought though.
One idea I'd like to throw out there though - how about a choice for multiple reviews from different mentors, i.e., for a fee, someone would submit an image for critique or whatever and they would choose, say, three different available mentors to look at it and respond so they would get some varied opinions. Just a thought.
I am also not sure why NPN wouldn't take a share of the fee - seems only fair to me if NPN is the conduit between the victim and mentor.
I will need to go back reread some of the earlier posts before responding further as I only time to do a cursory viewing so far.
Sorry, been absent on this one, pretty busy at the day job these days. Here's a "ROUGH" draft:
Services:
Lon Overacker Services offered:
- Composition
- Learning to "See"
- Photoshop CS - CS6
○ Workflow
○ Processing
○ Use and demonstration of Tony Kuyper's masks and actions Recommend purchasing, NPN discount?)
○ Masking, painting, color balance, saturation, etc.
- Making the image "the best that it can be"
- Services will not cover: Adobe Camera Raw or Lightroom or how to use your digital camera. Photoshop processing primary
Packages:
12-image portfolio Review $99Tier 1:
- Detail critique for each image to include:
○ Technical evaluation. Exposure, focus/sharpness, depth of field, highlights/shadows
○ Composition. Balance, flow, negative space, etc.
○ Processing (color, contrast, saturation, sharpening)
○ Impact. Viewer response, engagement
○ Originality and creativity
- Recommendations for improvement
○ Techniques and suggestions to improve images in portfolio
○ Techniques and suggestions for future images.
- Overall Portfolio Review and summary
○ Is there a theme or recognizable style or subject (landscape, wildlife, etc. but nature related.
○ No Street, wedding or nude photography or any non-nature/landscape photography)
- Includes 1 phone session to discuss and review critiques, answer questions and make recommendations
- Require the paying member describe their:
○ Photography experience (years, level of expertise)
○ Main photographic interests
○ Goals, expected outcome of the review
Tier 2: 30-day Mentoring Package $249
- Includes the 12-image Portfolio Review, plus an additional 8 images over the 30 day period
- Weekly tutoring sessions:
○ Review Portfolio 1st week
○ Set goals, expectations. Lay out the remaining 3-4 sessions, what the client is wanting to accomplish and gear the remaining sessions towards those goals.
○ Assignments, if any, for next session or,
○ Each week, have a specific subject (PS workflow, masking/painting, output workflow, color correction, etc.)
○ Phone and online collaboration (WebEx, etc.) in order to facilitate instruction, demo, etc.
- Email communication. Any time, within reason
- 30-day review, accomplishments, improvements, client satisfied?
I'd be happy to work with TK on getting an NPN discount, if we don't have one already. At least I'm pretty sure I would get a discount for any service I might provide independent of NPN or not.
Also, One of the KEY components to this that I've mentioned before is the requirement of some kind of online collaborative service where we can share desktops, interact online, etc. It would be really great if we just had an NPN account with admin rights where we can just schedule our own sessions.
And for that alone, there would be a cost for that (annual fee) and I still think NPN should get a cut, even if it's something like 5%, it's worth it to me. Instead of a half dozen or more signing up for a service like this, we would need to provide a consistent platform.
Jim, if you're not interested in taking a cut because of the tax/income/accounting things, I can understand, but really if this is going to be promoted on NPN and NPN is a conduit for these services, you should be compensated.
Anyway, more thoughts as time goes on. Any feedback or suggestions on the rough draft anyone? let me know.
I have no issue "taking a cut" but at the end of the day it is sale of memberships that keeps the wind in our sails. My hope is that by offering this kind of service it will help us with that.
Let's move this forward! If you would like to offer a mentoring service, please outline it as Lon has above and forward it to me at editor@naturephotographers.net
"Also, One of the KEY components to this that I've mentioned before is the requirement of some kind of online collaborative service where we can share desktops, interact online, etc. It would be really great if we just had an NPN account with admin rights where we can just schedule our own sessions."
Preston, I have info on a WebEx service that does just that. Ironing out some details on cost for those mentors who would like to use the service that NPN would subscribe to.
Jim,.. I was thinking more about this thread tonight...
Many times I do a screen shot of a member's image and do the cropping/photoshop work to it before I post my recommendations and critiques. I want to make sure my suggestions are appropriate and effective. Of course, I never post those images or illude to them, but it got me thinking.... What if you had a "permission box" that could be checked by the image poster that gave permission to the gallery moderator to show what they could do with an image. It could be posted publicly or an image sent back to the poster's email address. The moderator could then chose one or more images per week/month to post back to the gallery showing the results of their suggestions in visual form. This might enhance the idea of a fee based mentoring system by showing a concrete example. Many times, I feel an image has so much potential, but the creator simply lacks some of the technical skills to make the image sing.
Showing an improved image would connect with the member and might make them hungry for more.... whether it be more site participation or a fee based mentoring service. It could also show other members and potential members the benefit of the site.
Another aspect of this could be a request for image improvement to be done by the moderators. The improvement could be done to a screen image and, if the member approves, a fee could be charged for a full size file adjustment. I realize this could make some moderators and members a bit uncomfortable, but my feeling is there are lots of folks wanting better images that simply don't want to take the time or learn the necessary techniques. This could be an other service in addition to the long term mentoring... a simple pay as you go / single image service.
Discussion
40 replies1. A member would sign up with a mentor of a period of time for a fee that gets paid directly to the mentor.
2. The mentor would then provide personalized critique on photos and offer their guidance online and off to help the student.
3. Mentors would be limited to NPN staff
4. We would have a Mentor section in the Staff menu
5. All that NPN requires is a paid membership
6. The fee structure would be the same for all mentors.
7. The basic services offered by each mentor would be similiar, but we'd leave room for each mentor to taylor their own program.
As starting point, we can consider $95 for a month and perhaps $249 for 3 months. We can finalize the actual fee by a consensus.
We would need to offer a money-back trial period. For the online courses, we allowed students to cancel up to 14 days after the course started for a full refund. This worked well and we had very few drop out.
The mentor having a PayPal account would make it all easier to collect the fee and refund it if needed.
Let's starting collectively kicking this idea around!
I enjoy helping the beginner and have worked with numerous members offline over the years. Would be great to get some extra cash!
Not that I want to give away money, but if NPN is going to provide some sort of infrastructure or acting as a gateway to this service, including setting up guidelines, have a forum/gallery, whatever, shouldn't there be a percentage getting kicked back to NPN? Can't say what that percentage would be.... but thought I would toss that out there too.
There would need to be a place on NPN where the list of Mentors and their services would be listed. Obviously we would have to list the skillsets or areas we would like to mentor. for example, I would obviously NOT offer multi-focus stacking or multi-expsure bracketing, hdr, ACR, Lightroom, etc. etc., while others might excel at that. This allows the members to more closely fit the services to their needs.
Sure, let's kick this around. I'm game.
Lon
Lon - to some extent there is an implicit benefit to NPN, which is that this program might entice people to join NPN in order to gain access to the mentoring program. But I would certainly not be opposed to something getting kicked back to NPN.
Guy would certainly be a great resource for suggestions. In fact that prompted me to go take a peek at his site and blog. Now I know he used to provide a one-on-one service, portfolio review - something like $1200 for a monthly review/mentoring for up to a year, and I think multiple different options. But interestingly, I couldn't find that anywhere on this site or blog. Anyway, I know he's booked doing workshops for a while longer, but I think could still provide some insight.
I agree we need to be very clear on expectations, services offered and time commitments.
Interested in hearing other's input on the topic.
<begin long ramble>
I believe the future of NPN - set in light of today's competition from sites like 500PX - will need to transition to services not offered elsewhere. What we have going for us is deep talent on the NPN staff and some deep respect for it. The future of NPN - which exists by selling memberships - hinges on this.
I don't know about the rest of you, but if NPN didn't offer Donna and I some (at least meager) financial benefits, I surely could find other more enjoyable things to do with my time. Somehow, I suspect you all feel the same - or can relate to some degree to that statement.
So, how can we leverage NPN to help you - the true soul and talent of the site - earn some compensation for your time and get people to buy NPN memberships at the same time?
Here is what I envision (in rather broad terms);
A program where talented and respected photographers offer their personalized mentoring to help those who are in the market for such a service.
Each of these mentors could have a subdomain (example - http://lonoveracker.naturephotographers.net) that they could manage and upload directly to using their own unique FTP log in.
Or instead of the above, a more in-depth Staff Profile page where they can list the services they offer (I think the subdomain approach above is preferable).
There would be a menu listing of all of the mentors with links to their subdomain or staff profile.
What you offer is entirely up to you, the only thing we'll set up front is pricing and the basic services offered.
Basic services;
1. Personalized critique of (x number) of images per duration of mentoring service of photos posted on NPN.
2. Offline communication with student to offer advice, give help, etc. (not all of the tutoring should in the form of a critique in a public forum).
3. There would need to be a set time for 100% refund if not satisfied. With the online courses (which lasted about 6 weeks), a student could cancel up to 14 days after the starting date for a full refund. After that, no refunds are provided.
From there, you are free to offer anything else you would want to do. While pricing per duration would be set the same for all mentors and the basic services listed above would be the same, each mentor is free to offer more (competition is good).
Each mentor could list a specialty area (landscape, wildlife, Photoshop, etc.).
Payment for all services go directly to the mentor - you would provide a link on your mentoring service page to your PayPal account.
So, NPN becomes a platform where each mentor could offer their mentoring services and perhaps build a decent little business doing so, and in the process help build NPN membership.
<end long ramble>
Comments, questions, suggestions? Let's make this happen!
In the spirit of full disclosure, those critiques should probably be labeled as being "paid for" in some way.
I think that's a great idea to include self-critique, but I'm not sure I would make it a requirement. I can just hear the comment, "you mean I paid XX bucks to critique my own photos?" Even though of course we would be providing a critique. I do think it would be a good exercise to include in the mentoring and critique process.
Just thinking out loud to get some thoughts, I'm thinking of perhaps a 3 Tiered offering.
Tier 1 - 12-image portfolio review (10-15 images total?) This would include in depth critique, commentary, suggestions and recommendations for improvement. Limited email exchange and very limited actual tutoring or mentoring. This would be primarily a portfolio review. $50-$75? Where I might spend just an hour or two for the review and critique.
Tier 2 - One Month mentoring. Includes the 12 image portfolio review and 4, 1hr mentoring/tutoring sessions (via phone and collaboration tool like WebEx or equivalent.) At least $99
Tier 3 - The 3 month deal. Include the portfolio review, maybe increase to 20 images? weekly/bi-weekly? with more topic driven sessions, homework (assignments) perhaps.
I think the subdomain idea with ftp capability would work best. Additionally as I mentioned, I think it would be required for the tier 2 & 3 session to have some collaborative tool where screens can be shared and processing techniques could be shared.
Anyone else up for this?
OK, who wants in? Lets do that next and then nail down the details.
I like your 3 sets of offers, Lon. 4 1hr sessions should cost more than $99, though. I'd say more in the $250 range.
Tier 0 - $14.95 per photo, professional critique. We could create a template for the critique for consistency and so that buyers would know what they're getting. This would also allow quicker/more efficient writing of the critique by the mentor.
Teir 1 - $99 for professional critique of 10 photos over 14 days, which would be posted in main NPN galleries for critique. Within those 14 days, student has option to upgrade to higher tier for difference in cost.
Tier 2 - $249. These tiers should include what Lon has suggested as well as having the student write 5 critiques themselves (they could pick any photo posted to critique).
Tier 3 - $349.
Not sure about the Tier 0. A member I think expects they should get a critique in the galleries because they've already paid a membership fee to post and get critiqes. It's kinda like saying, pay $14.95 for a "real" critique.
I think the focus should be more on mentoring, which of course includes critiques. I would opt for "Portfolio Review" rather than "professional critique." The service value needs to be distinguished from what they think they are already getting with membership.
"which would be posted in main NPN galleries for critique." Is this in addition to the custom, personalized critique from the mentor? Not sure where you're going with this. Members can already post in the main galleries.
I'm fine if it happens offline - if so, what NPN resources would you want to use to conduct your mentoring services?
Maybe each mentor could have a strength, I could offer something like, developing long term photography projects.
Another reason I'm not all that comfortable with the idea is that if posted in a main gallery, then it's open for anyone to offer critiques, which may support my critiques and suggestions, but as we all know, there are many different opinions and just as likely folks could post opposing opinions, potentially undermining the service and maybe even the mentors credibility
Having said that, you could require as part of the service that the paying member post their final, edited and critiqued image with a note expressing their thoughts about the mentoring experience, what they learned, etc. But even that sounds forced. I'm certainly open to figure out a way to make the service visible, but at the same time keep the mentor-mentee relationship and tutoring, private. Which if I spend $250 for tutoring, I certainly would want all the attention on me and my learning experience. I'll have to think some more on how we could make it visible (ie. advertising and promoting the service.) Maybe some others have some ideas.
Lon
I think Carl is on the right track, here. The 'student' would have a specific goal in mind and the mentor would help them develop the objectives they would need to meet in order to attain that goal. The mentor would evaluate the results of each objective as it is attained to see if the 'student' was staying with the plan..
This may involve critique of images and/or a portfolio review by the mentor during the process, especially if the goal to develop a specific 'style' or to realize a specific project.
In light of Jim's comment above, some/all of the critique process should be in the IC galleries for the reason he states. Given the lengthy discussion regarding "What can be done to get interest in NPN up again?" in the General Discussion forum, doing some, if not all critiques in the IC galleries would go toward a visible response to this question.
As I see it, the mentor and the 'student' would be responsible for how they want to proceed. If the student and the mentor are comfortable with providing critiques in the main IC galleries, coupled with private communication, that's a good thing: There's a direct benefit to NPN and the 'student' is receiving the individual attention they need in order to meet their goal.
--P
Also, my Tier 0 suggestion appears to be a non-starter, which is no problem with me!
How about this - anyone interested in offering their mentor service, why not outline what you have in mind so we can get the ball rolling.
Thanks!
MOre soon,
Lon
When you are ready let me know what would work for you and what you'd like to offer, and from there we'll put together a NPN program to promote all of it.
This is something I've done with folks that have approached me for mentoring/advise. I've done it for free in the past, so if it is charged for, it will obviously have more value... I'd be on board with the tier system you've outlined. Perhaps all of the moderators could post before and after images or different images from the same location to show what is possible with the skills we could teach. I would personally want to interact with exchanged files/images as well as over the phone. I think it might also be important to cast this net beyond the current membership and into the huge photo pool of the amateur photographers. Invite them into NPN via this teaching format. It could dramatically increase NPN participation and viewership.
Keywords and Metatags could be set up to bring the casual searcher tor photo instruction to NPN for instruction... this page could then be used to urge membership with the benefits of free critique and community.
Photography that's visible on the internet is starting to suffer from overload and malaise. The huge volume of great images everywhere has caused boredom. An enhanced degree of interaction between viewer and producer could offset this trend. Make the jump between someone showing great images and the person that wants to produce them, a simple and intimate process. This could change the nature of the site and it's community, but it might create a source of energy for a growth spurt for NPN.
--P
I think all we (Donna and I) need to do is collect a list of services that each of you wish to offer and create a list of mentors to be promoted on the site. The student contacts you directly and each of you set up your own program, price structure, etc. in any way you wish.
I think we can send some business your way, and it will add to the value of NPN as a "nature photography resource" by doing so. All we ask in return is that you promote NPN membership, though membership will not be mandatory for anyone to use your services. Thoughts?
--P
Preston, though I think mentors will be primarily gallery moderators, I see no reason to exclude forum (including regional group) moderators.
So here is where we stand;
1. Those moderators who would like to offer mentoring services will be promoted on the site as a "NPN Mentor."
2. We will have a mentor section in the Staff menu, where mentors will create a profile and give an overview of their services and any specific areas they would like to focus on.
3. All mentoring fees will be paid directly to the mentor - NPN takes no cut.
4. Each mentor will determine their own services and exactly how they will offer it (email exchange, posting on NPN, face-to-face, etc.) and set their own fee schedules.
5. Mentors will promote NPN membership. Ideally (as long as none of you have an issue with this), anyone using your services will need to be a NPN member.
To get this rolling, create a list of services you would like to offer and set up a fee schedule. I will then add this to your Staff Profile and move your listing into the (yet to be created) Mentors section in the Staff menu.
Once we get this rolling, we will promote the "NPN Mentor Program" heavily on the site and on the NPN Facebook page.
Sound OK?
One idea I'd like to throw out there though - how about a choice for multiple reviews from different mentors, i.e., for a fee, someone would submit an image for critique or whatever and they would choose, say, three different available mentors to look at it and respond so they would get some varied opinions. Just a thought.
I am also not sure why NPN wouldn't take a share of the fee - seems only fair to me if NPN is the conduit between the victim
I will need to go back reread some of the earlier posts before responding further as I only time to do a cursory viewing so far.
I'll be back.
Services:
Lon Overacker Services offered:
- Composition
- Learning to "See"
- Photoshop CS - CS6
○ Workflow
○ Processing
○ Use and demonstration of Tony Kuyper's masks and actions Recommend purchasing, NPN discount?)
○ Masking, painting, color balance, saturation, etc.
- Making the image "the best that it can be"
- Services will not cover: Adobe Camera Raw or Lightroom or how to use your digital camera. Photoshop processing primary
Packages:
12-image portfolio Review $99Tier 1:
- Detail critique for each image to include:
○ Technical evaluation. Exposure, focus/sharpness, depth of field, highlights/shadows
○ Composition. Balance, flow, negative space, etc.
○ Processing (color, contrast, saturation, sharpening)
○ Impact. Viewer response, engagement
○ Originality and creativity
- Recommendations for improvement
○ Techniques and suggestions to improve images in portfolio
○ Techniques and suggestions for future images.
- Overall Portfolio Review and summary
○ Is there a theme or recognizable style or subject (landscape, wildlife, etc. but nature related.
○ No Street, wedding or nude photography or any non-nature/landscape photography)
- Includes 1 phone session to discuss and review critiques, answer questions and make recommendations
- Require the paying member describe their:
○ Photography experience (years, level of expertise)
○ Main photographic interests
○ Goals, expected outcome of the review
Tier 2: 30-day Mentoring Package $249
- Includes the 12-image Portfolio Review, plus an additional 8 images over the 30 day period
- Weekly tutoring sessions:
○ Review Portfolio 1st week
○ Set goals, expectations. Lay out the remaining 3-4 sessions, what the client is wanting to accomplish and gear the remaining sessions towards those goals.
○ Assignments, if any, for next session or,
○ Each week, have a specific subject (PS workflow, masking/painting, output workflow, color correction, etc.)
○ Phone and online collaboration (WebEx, etc.) in order to facilitate instruction, demo, etc.
- Email communication. Any time, within reason
- 30-day review, accomplishments, improvements, client satisfied?
I'd be happy to work with TK on getting an NPN discount, if we don't have one already. At least I'm pretty sure I would get a discount for any service I might provide independent of NPN or not.
Also, One of the KEY components to this that I've mentioned before is the requirement of some kind of online collaborative service where we can share desktops, interact online, etc. It would be really great if we just had an NPN account with admin rights where we can just schedule our own sessions.
And for that alone, there would be a cost for that (annual fee) and I still think NPN should get a cut, even if it's something like 5%, it's worth it to me. Instead of a half dozen or more signing up for a service like this, we would need to provide a consistent platform.
Jim, if you're not interested in taking a cut because of the tax/income/accounting things, I can understand, but really if this is going to be promoted on NPN and NPN is a conduit for these services, you should be compensated.
Anyway, more thoughts as time goes on. Any feedback or suggestions on the rough draft anyone? let me know.
Lon
I have no issue "taking a cut" but at the end of the day it is sale of memberships that keeps the wind in our sails. My hope is that by offering this kind of service it will help us with that.
I like this idea.
--P
Many times I do a screen shot of a member's image and do the cropping/photoshop work to it before I post my recommendations and critiques. I want to make sure my suggestions are appropriate and effective. Of course, I never post those images or illude to them, but it got me thinking.... What if you had a "permission box" that could be checked by the image poster that gave permission to the gallery moderator to show what they could do with an image. It could be posted publicly or an image sent back to the poster's email address. The moderator could then chose one or more images per week/month to post back to the gallery showing the results of their suggestions in visual form. This might enhance the idea of a fee based mentoring system by showing a concrete example. Many times, I feel an image has so much potential, but the creator simply lacks some of the technical skills to make the image sing.
Showing an improved image would connect with the member and might make them hungry for more.... whether it be more site participation or a fee based mentoring service. It could also show other members and potential members the benefit of the site.
Another aspect of this could be a request for image improvement to be done by the moderators. The improvement could be done to a screen image and, if the member approves, a fee could be charged for a full size file adjustment. I realize this could make some moderators and members a bit uncomfortable, but my feeling is there are lots of folks wanting better images that simply don't want to take the time or learn the necessary techniques. This could be an other service in addition to the long term mentoring... a simple pay as you go / single image service.