I want to thank everyone who leaves a critique about my work I do have quite a few years in the bussiness but I work mostly in the dark room I guess you can can I am a dinosaur. I still do today everything up to 4x5 I just started working with CS6 about 6 months ago at about the same time I signed up here so its been a learning experiance all the way around but a good one. Most of my work in the past has been weddings, portraits and land scape I just recently gave up on them (to much hassle if you know what I mean) and know I really enjoy nature photography at least there not late for their appoinment. Well again thank you and I will continueto post my picks as I shoot them
Posted by Lon Overacker on January 27, 2013 at 12:34 PM
Hi George,
While I'm pretty sure I haven't been one of those who has commented on your work (I don't often visit the galleries you've posted in,) but I just wanted to say thanks for acknowledging those who do! It's an excellent post in light of some of the recent discussions going on about commenting. So thanks!
Lon
Posted by Charlie Baugh on January 27, 2013 at 4:03 PM
(I don't often visit the galleries you've posted in,)
Hope you don't mind me asking why this is, Lon. I've seen many of your images that seemed like the main subject was grasses or trees though those certainly were part of overall landscapes. To my thinking those fit flora. Knowing your love of landscapes, you must encounter birds, wildlife and other interesting nature subjects while pursuing landscape images .
I've always been curious why many stay almost totally in one particular gallery.
Posted by Lon Overacker on January 27, 2013 at 7:54 PM
Charlie,
A good and fair question, so thanks for asking and no, I do not mind at all. Actually this kind of dovetails off the other thread you started, "sitting on hands," of which I have yet to chime in on.
Keep in mind this is just my answer and behavior. To answer the question, "...why many stay totally in one particular gallery..." I don't think can be answered generically. We are all here for different reasons, expectations and experiences. We have the full gamut of photographers from brand new to photography and processing, to those who have been around photography for decades. And more still are those where photography actually pays the bills. Some are here to learn, while others are here just to share their work and be a part of a community of fellow nature photographers. So, I can't answer why so many visit only one gallery, but I can give you my experience - which will be different than yours and everyone else's here.
You and others have probably noticed that I'm most active with my comments when I'm posting images. When I'm not posting images, my comments drop way off. Some may have an issue with that, while many others could probably care less. I'm completely comfortable with my behavior because I know I put a LOT of effort and time in to posting comments on nearly every image in the Landscape gallery - when I'm active. And I think it's fair to say that my comments are constructive because I'm not only here to show my own work, but I truly enjoy helping others become better photographers. I certainly don't expect anyone else to do what I do, and given everyone's differences, time, desire, whatever, shouldn't be expected to comment on every image either.
Given my particular mode of operation, if I posted in other galleries, It would only be fair that I comment equally. Honestly, It's just not practical to think that I could participate in other galleries the way I do in Landscape. It has nothing to do with the gallery categories, people or images posted there, I just happen to enjoy being very involved in one gallery rather than giving half an effort in every other gallery. And in the end, it all boils down to time for most folks. To kinda repeat what I just wrote, I would rather spend quality time in one gallery, than divide that same amount of time in 8 other galleries. Hope that helps and makes sense.
The issue is Charlie, that my answer here doesn't help solve the perceived problem, as I'm just one member of thousands, each with our own motives and expectations.
To your question about whether or not some of my grass or tree images could be posted in Flora. They could be as they certainly qualify as "flora." In my own opinion, to draw the distinction, if I had titled one of my grass images, "Western mountain wheat grass and thistle..."(totally made that up, I have no idea what kind of grasses grow in Yosemite's meadows,) to me, that says Flora because it's about the grass, the plant, the species, etc. Tilting the image (and also the way I feel about it,) "Meadow Elegance" to me represents an image about patterns, tone, grace and beauty - all found in nature. Grass and Flora sure? But just as qualified in the broad genre that we call Landscape photography.
From strictly a moderator's point of view, the only clear guideline or rule for Landscape is that the image not contain the "hand of man." For the most part, that's easy enough to distinguish. The biggest issue or argument folks have with that is consistency and to what degree the HOM is allowed, or not. But beyond HOM, posting a BOS (bird on stick) in Landscape doesn't necessarily mean it's not qualified to be there - certainly the bird is part of a landscape - I think most would agree. However, in the spirit of the guidelines and definitions of the galleries, the more "appropriate" gallery in this example would be Avian. Conversely, your example of my grass images is quite a bit more subjective and could qualify in either gallery AND not be disqualified or moved from the same.
Lastly, and IMHO, what should come out of all these discussions is, what can be done to improve comments and participation? We can all ask questions, raise issues of why this or that doesn't work, put people in groups and labels, etc. Maybe we're all better served if we can also expand these discussions to figure out what can be done to make it better? NPN is a unique and valued community. It's not perfect, after all it's just an "online forum" where personal interaction is limited and communication is only by the written word. It's totally easy for me to sit here for an hour and construct a lengthy and wordy response, and just as easy for another to flame me for it. But to what end?
I welcome civil discussions like this, but like everyone else, I wish I had more time to solve them.
Lon
Posted by Charlie Baugh on January 27, 2013 at 11:30 PM
Forgive me for not going into all you have said here, Lon. I can relate to most of it. I'm a relative short timer, so though the guidelines have sort of seeped into my understanding and most make sense to me. I'll just offer my observances and not really make suggestions. If it is your goal to comment on every image posted in landscape I can understand that you wouldn't have time for the group overall. I think that is a loss for the group overall that you seldom come into the other critiques and comments on the images of those of us who shoot mostly non landscape.
When I was here before, I felt that the overall group would benefit if all entering the NPN site entered in the "All Photos" screen. It would at least allow any post to have a chance of being viewed by everyone here, the most experienced and knowledgeable and the new people near the beginning of their learning this wonderful venture. The way it is now I believe landscape is the most active and I'd guess from what i have observed that many or most enter into just that gallery and don't ever glance at other type images.
Trying to keep a healthy post to comment ration has always been something on my mind as somebody very early on told me it is the only way the group works well. I will say that I don't feel obligated to comment on all of any gallery and don't think it is even a good, or I wonder if honest, way of doing comments. I just know if I tried to comment on images I had no feeling for, it would not be honest. But with all trying to keep their ratio high, most should get fair commenting.
Charlie, you have to remember that Lon is one of the moderators of the Landscape gallery, and it is quite typical that the moderators do try to comment on each image that is posted in their gallery. That takes a LOT of time, and I can completely understand why Lon doesn't have the time to go to the other galleries. Moderators on NPN take their positions very seriously and put in a tremendous amount of effort. They try to welcome, educate, and moderate, all at the same time.
Over the years we've had (and still do) absolutely world-class photographers here. We would all love to have them be our mentors, but frankly, as Lon said, much of it comes down to time.
Charlie, you have to remember that Lon is one of the moderators of the Landscate gallery, and it is quite typical that the moderators do try to comment on each image that is posted in their gallery. That takes a LOT of time, and I can completely understand why Lon doesn't have the time to go to the other galleries. Moderators on NPN take their positions very seriously and put in a tremendous amount of effort. They try to welcome, educate, and moderate, all at the same time.
Over the years we've had (and still do) absolutely world-class photographers here. We would all love to have them be our mentors, but frankly, as Lon said, much of it comes down to time.
I can fully understand a moderator devoting time to the gallery he/she moderates. I have no argument with it; I think that is what it should be. I am more interested, however, in what and where the average participant spends their time. Speaking only for myself, I try to participate each time in the gallery I post to, which is mostly Flora and Avian. I am interested in other forums, and I will view there and read the critiques, even if I don't respond there. Most times I will respond in the posting gallery, as it is a way for me to learn and pay it forward, so to speak.
I have seen (and fallen victim to it myself) that a new participant will hesitate to offer criticism. I think this is natural, but it should be stressed that participation beyond posting is necessary if one is to advance one's own skills and help others. The hardest thing is to be critical and kind at the same time!
Discussion
8 repliesWhile I'm pretty sure I haven't been one of those who has commented on your work (I don't often visit the galleries you've posted in,) but I just wanted to say thanks for acknowledging those who do! It's an excellent post in light of some of the recent discussions going on about commenting. So thanks!
Lon
Hope you don't mind me asking why this is, Lon. I've seen many of your images that seemed like the main subject was grasses or trees though those certainly were part of overall landscapes. To my thinking those fit flora. Knowing your love of landscapes, you must encounter birds, wildlife and other interesting nature subjects while pursuing landscape images .
I've always been curious why many stay almost totally in one particular gallery.
A good and fair question, so thanks for asking and no, I do not mind at all. Actually this kind of dovetails off the other thread you started, "sitting on hands," of which I have yet to chime in on.
Keep in mind this is just my answer and behavior. To answer the question, "...why many stay totally in one particular gallery..." I don't think can be answered generically. We are all here for different reasons, expectations and experiences. We have the full gamut of photographers from brand new to photography and processing, to those who have been around photography for decades. And more still are those where photography actually pays the bills. Some are here to learn, while others are here just to share their work and be a part of a community of fellow nature photographers. So, I can't answer why so many visit only one gallery, but I can give you my experience - which will be different than yours and everyone else's here.
You and others have probably noticed that I'm most active with my comments when I'm posting images. When I'm not posting images, my comments drop way off. Some may have an issue with that, while many others could probably care less. I'm completely comfortable with my behavior because I know I put a LOT of effort and time in to posting comments on nearly every image in the Landscape gallery - when I'm active. And I think it's fair to say that my comments are constructive because I'm not only here to show my own work, but I truly enjoy helping others become better photographers. I certainly don't expect anyone else to do what I do, and given everyone's differences, time, desire, whatever, shouldn't be expected to comment on every image either.
Given my particular mode of operation, if I posted in other galleries, It would only be fair that I comment equally. Honestly, It's just not practical to think that I could participate in other galleries the way I do in Landscape. It has nothing to do with the gallery categories, people or images posted there, I just happen to enjoy being very involved in one gallery rather than giving half an effort in every other gallery. And in the end, it all boils down to time for most folks. To kinda repeat what I just wrote, I would rather spend quality time in one gallery, than divide that same amount of time in 8 other galleries. Hope that helps and makes sense.
The issue is Charlie, that my answer here doesn't help solve the perceived problem, as I'm just one member of thousands, each with our own motives and expectations.
To your question about whether or not some of my grass or tree images could be posted in Flora. They could be as they certainly qualify as "flora." In my own opinion, to draw the distinction, if I had titled one of my grass images, "Western mountain wheat grass and thistle..."(totally made that up, I have no idea what kind of grasses grow in Yosemite's meadows,) to me, that says Flora because it's about the grass, the plant, the species, etc. Tilting the image (and also the way I feel about it,) "Meadow Elegance" to me represents an image about patterns, tone, grace and beauty - all found in nature. Grass and Flora sure? But just as qualified in the broad genre that we call Landscape photography.
From strictly a moderator's point of view, the only clear guideline or rule for Landscape is that the image not contain the "hand of man." For the most part, that's easy enough to distinguish. The biggest issue or argument folks have with that is consistency and to what degree the HOM is allowed, or not. But beyond HOM, posting a BOS (bird on stick) in Landscape doesn't necessarily mean it's not qualified to be there - certainly the bird is part of a landscape - I think most would agree. However, in the spirit of the guidelines and definitions of the galleries, the more "appropriate" gallery in this example would be Avian. Conversely, your example of my grass images is quite a bit more subjective and could qualify in either gallery AND not be disqualified or moved from the same.
Lastly, and IMHO, what should come out of all these discussions is, what can be done to improve comments and participation? We can all ask questions, raise issues of why this or that doesn't work, put people in groups and labels, etc. Maybe we're all better served if we can also expand these discussions to figure out what can be done to make it better? NPN is a unique and valued community. It's not perfect, after all it's just an "online forum" where personal interaction is limited and communication is only by the written word. It's totally easy for me to sit here for an hour and construct a lengthy and wordy response, and just as easy for another to flame me for it. But to what end?
I welcome civil discussions like this, but like everyone else, I wish I had more time to solve them.
Lon
When I was here before, I felt that the overall group would benefit if all entering the NPN site entered in the "All Photos" screen. It would at least allow any post to have a chance of being viewed by everyone here, the most experienced and knowledgeable and the new people near the beginning of their learning this wonderful venture. The way it is now I believe landscape is the most active and I'd guess from what i have observed that many or most enter into just that gallery and don't ever glance at other type images.
Trying to keep a healthy post to comment ration has always been something on my mind as somebody very early on told me it is the only way the group works well. I will say that I don't feel obligated to comment on all of any gallery and don't think it is even a good, or I wonder if honest, way of doing comments. I just know if I tried to comment on images I had no feeling for, it would not be honest. But with all trying to keep their ratio high, most should get fair commenting.
Over the years we've had (and still do) absolutely world-class photographers here. We would all love to have them be our mentors, but frankly, as Lon said, much of it comes down to time.
Over the years we've had (and still do) absolutely world-class photographers here. We would all love to have them be our mentors, but frankly, as Lon said, much of it comes down to time.
I have seen (and fallen victim to it myself) that a new participant will hesitate to offer criticism. I think this is natural, but it should be stressed that participation beyond posting is necessary if one is to advance one's own skills and help others. The hardest thing is to be critical and kind at the same time!
Not true Phil--im a super kind guy and i critique the heck out your photos, it's real easy!