I have been a fan of this site for a number of years but have never (I don't think anyway) posted a question. Now I have a question:
I am trying to get the most range of color out of my Epson 2200 printer. My question has to do with whether I should be getting a wider range of colors and greater subtlety of color, on my printouts, using the ProPhoto RGB color space vs an Adobe RGB color space.
I have tried printing on different papers (with varying color gamut sizes), both with an Adobe RGB color space assigned to the document, and with Pro Photo RGB assigned. In all instances, and on different papers, my printed documents show practically no difference. They have no appreciable color difference and, as well, are somewhat muddied. (The muddied is subtle, but it is there.)
I went to the Deer Creek site and they have 3D-build-software that compares the color gamuts of the various printers and papers against a working color space.
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/tools/printer_gamuts/gamutmodel.html
(They say you need a VRML plug-in to use the site and they provide a download link for you to download the plug-in.)
Adobe RGB is a slightly smaller color space than the better of the epson 2200 printer-paper combinations (or other paper manufacturers for that matter). Pro Photo RGB color space is substantially larger than any of the epson 2200 printer-paper combinations.
Would anyone have any idea why, if I am using the larger color space (ProPhoto RGB) and good (read larger color gamut) paper, and my monitor is newly callibrated using the GreTagMacbeth Eye-one Match system, and I am assigning an epson 2200 icc printer profile to my document prior to printing -- with all of that, why do I not see any difference in Adobe RGB output and ProPhoto RGB?
Pretty long question, I think . . . maybe I have been saving up all these years???
Actually your printer/paper profile is much smaller than either of these. The larger color spaces are meant to be used while editing, allowing you to make adjustments with a lower chance of losing colro information. In the printing stage colors in your edited image are mapped to the smaller printer/paper space.
Thank you for your response. But I am still confused. There must be something more to the story because Bob Johnson and Mark Hagedorn (sp?) both say that the Epson 2200 printer is capable of a larger color space than Adobe RGB. Mark included a picture of an oriole, as an example of what I thought was a printed output and the oriole was definitely different in ProPhoto vs Adobe RGB.
Do you have a reference to the article? Without more information I'm guessing they are talking about using a larger color space for editing to avoid losing information while processing the image. When it's time to print, a printer profile (color space) must be used. No printer can produce these huge color spaces.
But no matter which color space I attach to my document (ProPhoto RGB or Adobe RGB) I certainly don't get the added colors (as in Matt Hagadorn's oriole). Also I do attach the Epson 2200 paper-specific printer profiles to my documents before I print them with all the bells and whistles that Bob Johnson suggests when printing to an Epson 2200 printer.
If you look at Matt's article you'll notice in Figure 4 that the Epson 2200 color space is smaller than Adobe RGB (although not whollyt contained - it does have a small part that is not overlapping), and Figure 1 shows that ProPhoto is larger still.
I'm not sure what you mean by "attach". Perhaps you can describe your workflow from capture to print so we can help clarify the use of profiles.
The idea of using a large color space for editing is not to add color but to avoid losing colors as a result of manipulations.
As you kindly offered to review my "Capture to print workflow" here it is --
1) Nikon D200 capture raw, large -- 10 mp
2) Download from camera to My Pictures, open in Adobe Bridge in Camera Raw
3) For this instance, set Camera Raw to ProPhoto, 16bit, 10mp, 350 resolution
4) Adjust crop/level, temperature, exposure, (saturation & contrast a tiny bit),
save document as psd and open in Adobe Photoshop CS2.
5) Work in layers in Photoshop but first off, save the background layer image size to long side of 14" (short size defaults), resolution 350, bicubic, constrain proportions, scale styles (full size of out-of-the-camera, original shot images are ~13 x 8.5)
6) Make further adjustments via adjustment layers - (levels, curves, selective color, hue/saturation -- (keep levels and curves in luminosity mode rather than normal blending mode)
7) if I have to make non-adjustment layer corrections such as noise, healing, cloning, I duplicate the background layer but I am not yet real clear on where those duplicate layers should be positioned, so I do trial and error until the adjustment takes, and I can't tell you my exact process.
8) Save adjusted document as a psd file with all layers active
9) Save a flattened copy of psd file with a new file name and while in Photoshop, attach a print profile to document (Go to View, Go to Proof setup, select Custom, select Device to Simulate - SP2200 premium glossy_pk (profile came from updated print profiles at Epson site) -- PK if using Photo Black ink and MK if using Matte Black
10) Sharpen flattened print-ready file.
11) Then to PRINTING -- My printing workflow comes directly from Bob Johnson of www.earthboundlight.com --
From flattened & sharpened file go to Print with Preview and choose Color Mgmg vs Output; for PRINT choose proof vs document; for COLOR HANDLING choose no color mgmt; for PROOF SETUP select current custom setup. THEN in PRINTER SETUPS set paper to match print profile, select ICM, and for ICC profile select no color adjustment
NOTE: Now, if I want, at this point, to change the color space in my original flattened print document in order to compare print outcomes between ProPhoto RGB and Adobe RGB 1998 I go back and open my flattened print document in Photoshop CS2, to go EDIT, go to CONVERT TO PROFILE, select a new color space, i.e. Adobe RGB 1998. Then I print the document again, with the new color space, AND VOILA, I SEE NO DIFFERENCE IN PRINT OUTCOME.
* The working space (ProPhoto or Adobe RGB) should be set before any adjustments are made - the very purpose of it is to preserve color information from being destroyed by digital manipulation (levels, curves, filters etc.) In your case you are setting it in the raw converter, which is good. The goal is to have a lot of free space to tweak the image with minimal loss of real data. Changing the color space after you're done editing will not buy you anything. In your workflow the image starts off in ProPhoto, then gets converted (implicitly) to your printer profile through the Print with Preview dialog. If you convert to Adobe RGB before printing all you're doing is reducing the color space twice rather than once.
* In step 5 - you should not change teh physical size of your master image. Changing the size should be your one-before-last step when printing (the very last step being output sharpening). By changing the size early on you are either losing data or needlessly asking Photoshop to manufacture data that was not there to begin with.
In most cases you will not see any differences between ProPhoto and Adobe RGB. In Matt's article he shows that only a small selection of colors meaningful for Epson printing can be found in one and not the other. If your image does not have these specific colors to begin with you will see no difference.
Thank you so much for your time and advice. I wanted to say thank you but also to tell you how much I have enjoyed looking at your photography. On your personal website all of your photographs are x'd out for me (I don't think it is a popup issue as I turned off at least one popoff blocker). However I decided to run a Google search and found so many of your photographs at other sites. I particularly like Sundial Peak - Glacial Polish and Hibernating Aspens. Also found your multiple articles listed on this site; there is much, I am certain of value, to pick through.
I will apply your suggestions to my workflow and start from scratch if I want to see any possible advantages of a different color space. It's been a very productive exchange for me as I had to call together the sum or what I knew in an orderly fashion. Since I only switched from film to digital in January of this year I have had a steep learning curve in Photoshop, etc.
Discussion
9 repliesI have been a fan of this site for a number of years but have never (I don't think anyway) posted a question. Now I have a question:
I am trying to get the most range of color out of my Epson 2200 printer. My question has to do with whether I should be getting a wider range of colors and greater subtlety of color, on my printouts, using the ProPhoto RGB color space vs an Adobe RGB color space.
I have tried printing on different papers (with varying color gamut sizes), both with an Adobe RGB color space assigned to the document, and with Pro Photo RGB assigned. In all instances, and on different papers, my printed documents show practically no difference. They have no appreciable color difference and, as well, are somewhat muddied. (The muddied is subtle, but it is there.)
I went to the Deer Creek site and they have 3D-build-software that compares the color gamuts of the various printers and papers against a working color space.
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/tools/printer_gamuts/gamutmodel.html
(They say you need a VRML plug-in to use the site and they provide a download link for you to download the plug-in.)
Adobe RGB is a slightly smaller color space than the better of the epson 2200 printer-paper combinations (or other paper manufacturers for that matter). Pro Photo RGB color space is substantially larger than any of the epson 2200 printer-paper combinations.
Would anyone have any idea why, if I am using the larger color space (ProPhoto RGB) and good (read larger color gamut) paper, and my monitor is newly callibrated using the GreTagMacbeth Eye-one Match system, and I am assigning an epson 2200 icc printer profile to my document prior to printing -- with all of that, why do I not see any difference in Adobe RGB output and ProPhoto RGB?
Pretty long question, I think . . . maybe I have been saving up all these years???
Catherine
Guy
Thank you for your response. But I am still confused. There must be something more to the story because Bob Johnson and Mark Hagedorn (sp?) both say that the Epson 2200 printer is capable of a larger color space than Adobe RGB. Mark included a picture of an oriole, as an example of what I thought was a printed output and the oriole was definitely different in ProPhoto vs Adobe RGB.
Maybe you understand something I am missing?
Thanks,
Catherine
Do you have a reference to the article? Without more information I'm guessing they are talking about using a larger color space for editing to avoid losing information while processing the image. When it's time to print, a printer profile (color space) must be used. No printer can produce these huge color spaces.
Guy
Yes, I will add the url's for the two articles. The first is Matt Hagadorn's piece and the second is Bob Johnson's.
http://www.naturephotographers.net/articles1203/mh1203-1.html
http://www.earthboundlight.com/phototips/photoshop-color-settings.html?search=epson+2200+color+space&bool=and
But no matter which color space I attach to my document (ProPhoto RGB or Adobe RGB) I certainly don't get the added colors (as in Matt Hagadorn's oriole). Also I do attach the Epson 2200 paper-specific printer profiles to my documents before I print them with all the bells and whistles that Bob Johnson suggests when printing to an Epson 2200 printer.
I appreciate your time.
Catherine
Catherine,
If you look at Matt's article you'll notice in Figure 4 that the Epson 2200 color space is smaller than Adobe RGB (although not whollyt contained - it does have a small part that is not overlapping), and Figure 1 shows that ProPhoto is larger still.
I'm not sure what you mean by "attach". Perhaps you can describe your workflow from capture to print so we can help clarify the use of profiles.
The idea of using a large color space for editing is not to add color but to avoid losing colors as a result of manipulations.
Guy
I will send details on Monday. Have a nice weekend.
Catherine
As you kindly offered to review my "Capture to print workflow" here it is --
1) Nikon D200 capture raw, large -- 10 mp
2) Download from camera to My Pictures, open in Adobe Bridge in Camera Raw
3) For this instance, set Camera Raw to ProPhoto, 16bit, 10mp, 350 resolution
4) Adjust crop/level, temperature, exposure, (saturation & contrast a tiny bit),
save document as psd and open in Adobe Photoshop CS2.
5) Work in layers in Photoshop but first off, save the background layer image size to long side of 14" (short size defaults), resolution 350, bicubic, constrain proportions, scale styles (full size of out-of-the-camera, original shot images are ~13 x 8.5)
6) Make further adjustments via adjustment layers - (levels, curves, selective color, hue/saturation -- (keep levels and curves in luminosity mode rather than normal blending mode)
7) if I have to make non-adjustment layer corrections such as noise, healing, cloning, I duplicate the background layer but I am not yet real clear on where those duplicate layers should be positioned, so I do trial and error until the adjustment takes, and I can't tell you my exact process.
8) Save adjusted document as a psd file with all layers active
9) Save a flattened copy of psd file with a new file name and while in Photoshop, attach a print profile to document (Go to View, Go to Proof setup, select Custom, select Device to Simulate - SP2200 premium glossy_pk (profile came from updated print profiles at Epson site) -- PK if using Photo Black ink and MK if using Matte Black
10) Sharpen flattened print-ready file.
11) Then to PRINTING -- My printing workflow comes directly from Bob Johnson of www.earthboundlight.com --
From flattened & sharpened file go to Print with Preview and choose Color Mgmg vs Output; for PRINT choose proof vs document; for COLOR HANDLING choose no color mgmt; for PROOF SETUP select current custom setup. THEN in PRINTER SETUPS set paper to match print profile, select ICM, and for ICC profile select no color adjustment
NOTE: Now, if I want, at this point, to change the color space in my original flattened print document in order to compare print outcomes between ProPhoto RGB and Adobe RGB 1998 I go back and open my flattened print document in Photoshop CS2, to go EDIT, go to CONVERT TO PROFILE, select a new color space, i.e. Adobe RGB 1998. Then I print the document again, with the new color space, AND VOILA, I SEE NO DIFFERENCE IN PRINT OUTCOME.
Catherine
A couple of notes:
* The working space (ProPhoto or Adobe RGB) should be set before any adjustments are made - the very purpose of it is to preserve color information from being destroyed by digital manipulation (levels, curves, filters etc.) In your case you are setting it in the raw converter, which is good. The goal is to have a lot of free space to tweak the image with minimal loss of real data. Changing the color space after you're done editing will not buy you anything. In your workflow the image starts off in ProPhoto, then gets converted (implicitly) to your printer profile through the Print with Preview dialog. If you convert to Adobe RGB before printing all you're doing is reducing the color space twice rather than once.
* In step 5 - you should not change teh physical size of your master image. Changing the size should be your one-before-last step when printing (the very last step being output sharpening). By changing the size early on you are either losing data or needlessly asking Photoshop to manufacture data that was not there to begin with.
In most cases you will not see any differences between ProPhoto and Adobe RGB. In Matt's article he shows that only a small selection of colors meaningful for Epson printing can be found in one and not the other. If your image does not have these specific colors to begin with you will see no difference.
Guy
Thank you so much for your time and advice. I wanted to say thank you but also to tell you how much I have enjoyed looking at your photography. On your personal website all of your photographs are x'd out for me (I don't think it is a popup issue as I turned off at least one popoff blocker). However I decided to run a Google search and found so many of your photographs at other sites. I particularly like Sundial Peak - Glacial Polish and Hibernating Aspens. Also found your multiple articles listed on this site; there is much, I am certain of value, to pick through.
I will apply your suggestions to my workflow and start from scratch if I want to see any possible advantages of a different color space. It's been a very productive exchange for me as I had to call together the sum or what I knew in an orderly fashion. Since I only switched from film to digital in January of this year I have had a steep learning curve in Photoshop, etc.
Sincerely,
Catherine