Posted by Bill Fach on February 28, 2011 at 1:46 PM
After reading some of the comments in the blog thread regarding critique patterns I wonder if we ought to consider some type of mentor program. If I recall there was one at some time in the past but I never availed myself of it and really don't remember many details. Is this something we might pursue/offer? Any thoughts? >=))>
While I like the idea, I have two reservations. The "devil" will indeed be in the details of how it's set up. And in my case, as much as I like the idea I'm a little reluctant to cheer lead when my prospects for being an active participant are limited. I'm in negotiations for a contract to write a TV documentary, which will eat my available time outside the business for 6 months to a year.
Posted by Lon Overacker on February 28, 2011 at 7:33 PM
I like the idea behind a mentoring program, but like Hank I have a number of reservations and indeed the devil is in the details. Certainly something worth discussing.
Funny though, I think many of the moderators help a number of members by responding to questions and having discussions offline. I know I've done that with numerous folks. Of course it's usually spontaneous and voluntary.
I think with the current membership at NPN the number of folks who would sign up for a mentor program would be out the door, around the block and down the street. ;-)
What if this was a fee based service? Just thinking out loud.... $50/hour with split between NPN and the mentor? Scheduled, one on one sessions. Does NPN have any Virtual Classroom accounts like Go2Meeting or similar? That would be needed to share things like Photoshop techniques.
NPN could also provide a Portfolio Review. Again, Fee based service split between NPN and the Reviewer(presumably NPN staff.) NPN gets split because of hosting and development costs as well as Virtual room costs. Mentor gets paid to make it worth their time. Many of the mods are working photographers and like Hank, time is at a premium.
Another mentor option if it's free might be a voluntary service provided by ANY member. In other words, lots of qualified photographers with varying specialties might want to volunteer. It could be called a "Buddy System."
More random thoughts.... one of my other reservations would be the inevitable... getting a mentoree that emails you 5 questions every day.... there would most certainly need to be some constraints around a mentoring program.
Lastly, I think the current arrangement of included membership for compensation as being a moderator is fair. Start adding features like this discussion and I start thinking of fee-based activities just like the photography courses currently offered through NPN.
Lon, I too am thinking that it would need to be fee-based. The program would also have to be well-defined, detailing exactly what someone gets for signing up with a mentor.
There is no limit to the number of private forums that can be set up, so I think each mentor could have a forum. I think something along the lines of 30 to 60 days per session, with perhaps 2 comprehensive critiques per week. Or perhaps 10 critiques with 60 days to have photos critiqued. I also think the NPN moderators should be the mentors (if they want to be).
Let's keep this discussion going!
Posted by Varina Patel on March 2, 2011 at 2:43 PM
This topic had me cringing at first... I do a lot of mentoring of students and the difference from one student to the next is enormous. Some students will ask a few questions and then be done with it. Others send long lists of questions - or spam me with emails all day long. Of course, these are students who have come along on our workshops - so I've been paid, and it's part of my job to help out. Still - adding more was sounding like a nightmare!
On the other hand - now that I've read through the thread, I do think it could be reasonable. I like Jim's suggestion to limit the number of critiques to 10 over the course of 60 days... or something to that effect. And I think a fee-based system is a good idea to make it worth the mentor's time.
I'd be willing to participate if we can hammer out some very solid guidelines.
I too would be interested in participating in this. I'd add that in addition to photographic critiques, tutoring / mentoring on Photoshop / Lightroom post processing is something I'd be interested in. I'm doing it now a on a limited basis and it works out pretty well. Yes, the variability can be huge, and that is something that can be troubling, but so far it has not been a show stopper. With the proper guidelines in place, this could be fun and rewarding.
I have no interest in mentoring other than making comments and responding to the occasional email I receive. However, I think it's a great idea for those moderators and others who want to do it. If you opened the mentoring program up for code and design reviews, I think I'd be more comfortable mentoring in it. (smile) I really do like the idea though.
I like this idea Jim, and as long there's some well defined guidelines like you've suggested and some payment involved, I would definitely be interested.
I think we would want it to be a little more than just a one-way critique - what I mean is, I think folks would find it even more helpful if they could ask one round of questions and/or clarifications about the critique. I say one round, because otherwise it could easily snowball into a never ending conversation that would suck away more time than we can give.
Pricing these sorts of things is so hard. $75/hour seems to be a pretty typical rate for 'expert work'. I suppose an in depth critique might take half an hour, so somewhere on the order of $30/critique? Is that in the right ball park do you think? When you then count up 10, for $300, it sounds like a lot of money, so perhaps it would be best to package them. The first critique will probably be more work than subsequent ones, since you can refer to old critiques.
Lastly, I would consider adding an incentive in the program to get students to grant us permission to anonymously publish one of the critiques. That way you would get more content for the monthly 'magazine', and it would give us some advertising and exposure so people would see what they would be getting. We could then also publish those critiques on our own sites to draw more traffic to the program and NPN as a whole.
I would be interested certainly, but of course it all depends on how this may unfold.
Are we constrained to Image Critiques? I'm thinking many folks are happy getting the critiques they get in the galleries now. What is added value that would make someone want to pay additional money?
Rather than single image critiques, what about a 20-image portfolio review, limiting the mentors time to no more than an hour. Single images don't really show anyone someone's general ability. Everyone has at least one killer image! ;-)
Thinking out loud with other ideas that I think Pat is eluding to.
- One hour Photoshop session covering the basics. You could have Level's 1, 2 and 3, with three being more advanced. I would love to do a session on applying Tony's masks and actions and I think that would be a big hit. Bundle in his actions..... I know there's something along those lines inthe works for the NPN Shopping.
There are others who are adept at stitching and blending. Composition and lighting?
With these mini, personalized, limited "workshops" it would be very important to have a Virtual Room setup and for folks to talk one on one. It's one thing to email critiques back and forth, it's quite another to have a conversation with someone for an hour.
Gonna be a numbers game too. Say 2,000 members and say at a minimum several hundred, if not more are true beginners. 5-10 moderators volunteer for this. hmmmmm, there will need to be some qualifications and at least a wait list. Skillsets would have to be matched up. I've never seen LightRoom and only opened a RAW image once in ACR. Who knows Elements?
Lot's of ideas to consider, but I think could be whittled down to something that could work.
Lon
Posted by Varina Patel on March 2, 2011 at 8:54 PM
I like Lon's idea for a "portfolio review". It does seem like a cleaner and simpler idea... and as he said "an added value" beyond what we already offer in the galleries. I'd feel a lot better about offering my time in 30-minute (or even one-hour chunks)... rather than just "being available" for a month or more.
I think it's a good idea, but personally the time issue would be hard for me so I would not be interested in participating, but for those who can, I think it's a benefit to the members. I agree with Varina that some students can become pests, and you cringe every time you open your emails and see another question from them.
I do like concept of mentoring and I know for sure there are folks among us who have the skills to do it right. I also like Lon's ideas for possible categories.
*General portfolio review
*Photo Shop help/instruction
*Lightroom, Aperture, Photo Shop Elements help/instruction
*Blending, HDR, etc.
*Composition and Lighting.
Once categories are defined, each of us can post our specific skill set.
I am most interested in portfolio reviews and composition. While I'm half decent with PS, Lon would probably agree I'm too dangerous to be let loose among the general populace.
I think for portfolio reviews, a maximum number of images set at 20 with a minimum number of 10 would be workable, given a one-hour block for each portfolio. If composition were added in, an additional half-hour, or hour would be reasonable.
Personally, I could not afford to do this gratis. A fee structure, with part going to NPN and part to the mentor sounds good to me. From an income tax standpoint, I believe Jim would have to issue 1099's to the mentors, who would be non-employee sub-contractors. Jim's tax man would have to confirm this, however. (Yes, Lon, I am thinking out loud again. I hope I'm not giving you a headache!)
Count me in!
Have a great weekend, everyone!
--P
Posted by Jim Erhardt on April 7, 2012 at 10:13 AM
To keep some steam behind this one, I suggest that those interested put together a brief over view of the mentoring service you would like to provide and send it to me at editor@naturephotographers.net
The next step would be to set up a fee structure that is reasonably consistent, based on time spent. Once I see what you have in mind we can tackle that.
Jim, thanks for keeping this visible. I think it's certainly worth exploring, and defining, and I would be interested in participating.
Agree with others that which ever services are offered they need to be well defined. For example, a "Portfolio Review" does NOT mean "mentoring." In other words, if someone pays for a portfolio review, they get a review, feedback, some suggestions, etc. and the service ends - (I expect a few back and forth emails with questions) Inevitably, a review can and does lead to mentoring. I've done some ad hoc reviews and in so many cases I would expect there are enough technical flaws (exposure, focus, dof, AND processing issues) that follow up will most certainly come up, either because the member asks the questions and just through natural communications. So, this service can't be open ended so to speak.
I'll toss out some suggested services.
"Portfolio review." should be at least 10-12 images with a max of 20. This would be defined as just that, a review. It would/should include a summary/comment on each image with suggestions on technique, composition, etc. I would think a general portfolio comment too about the persons work would be appropriate. Some follow up email exchanges would be fine, but this needs to be defined so concerns like Varina mentioned don't get out of hand (I have those concerns too.)
Portfolio Review + Mentoring. This would be more clearly defined and include some time period like 30-60 days and include perhaps a set number of "sessions" where there could be some one-on-one communication by phone and/or virtual room technology, Skype for example.
I think a virtual room (Skype, WebEx, etc.) with desktop sharing feature would be essential. Voice over IP would be a nice bonus and is featured with many of these type products. I think the monthly rates for this kind of service is very reasonable with one account being able to service all the mentoring and sharing that NPN might use.
Perhaps another service could be a longer engagement, such as a "6 Month Mentorship" where the two parties get together (via phone) once a month to review images, progress, and perhaps even some assignments.
So, just tossing out some potential "services," 1. Portfolio Review and Critique, 2. Portfolio Review and mentoring and 3. Mentorship Program.
Pricing. Personally, I can't see myself doing a 10-12 image review for less than$75 and closer to $100 or more, minimum, for up to 20 images. To me, that's about 1 evenings worth image review and write up with a couple of followups. That of course is NET to reviewer. Jim get's to figure markup. ;-)
Price goes up with mentoring of course. Have no idea how to price this, but just for discussion sake, Net to mentor $250 that would include the portfolio review/critique and up to 4hrs of one on one time via phone/web sharing. The two participants could agree on say, 4, 1hr sessions, 2 2hr sessions, etc. To be completed within 30 days. Members could purchase additional "sessions" at say, $75 per. Just thinking out loud.
A few minutes after a Google search of "photography portfolio review service" and I think adding in some markup for NPN and these prices would be consistent with what is being offered, or even low. Ranges around $200 for a 20-image review and rates of $250/hr for personal instruction.
My personal take. I SUCK at marketing. For me, reviewing 10-20 images for $100 that takes a few hours may be worth the value I would get personally from the marketing aspect, and tools, being provided by NPN for their cut. I literally just provide the service and have to do very little marketing wise, other than perhaps add a link on my own website.
In addition to the tax issue previously mentioned, there are some legal and contractual stuff to be worked out. What happens when the two parties agree to meet for a face-to-face session that's outside the scope of the NPN service? Say a member wants to pay me for individual mentoring, a "workshop" after and separate from the NPN review or mentoring? I would think NPN would want to dismiss any and all liability for any "future" or resulting services provided be any member after the initial engagement. If NPN would want a cut of any derivative business, then I'm thinking NPN would then also cover any insurance and liability too. ;-) But perhaps I'm getting ahead of things here.
Anyway, enough for chewing on and clearly just some out of the box ideas.
Lon
Posted by Jim Erhardt on April 10, 2012 at 7:46 AM
Lon, good thoughts - and yes, it can get complicated/sticky in a hurry.
I think NPN could market this pretty well. I'm thinking the actual service could be provided by each of you individually, with NPN invoicing YOU for the advertising/marketing - this could simply be a cut of sell price of the service. You would be paid by directly by the member.
I would set up a section on NPN listing you as a mentor/reviewer, and promoting the services. I could also set up private forums for portfolio reviews, critiques, etc.
So, how many of you would be willing to set up a business with all of the requirements to do something like this? No matter how we set it up, this would be a requirement.
I'm really having a hard time understanding how this service would go far enough beyond what we offer in the image critiquing galleries (and off-line emails) to really justify charging for it. While I'm a web geek and really comfortable with technology, I'm not sure true mentoring and/or tutoring can be accomplished fully remotely (or done well enough to justify the rate that I - and presumably others - would have to charge to make it worth my time). I already tutor privately, and it's going very well. But, it always begins with a 1-on-1 (face-to-face) session - normally a multi-day stay at my "retreat" in the woods. After that and once I have feel for where the "student" (not sure that's the right term for someone receiving mentoring, but...) is really at photographically, remote contact - be it by email or phone or however - can have value. But...fully remote and by web and/or email contact only - well...I it just doesn't seem too far above and beyond what's already offered free here...
Just my 2 cents worth...take it for what it's worth (2 cents?).
Discussion
18 repliesFunny though, I think many of the moderators help a number of members by responding to questions and having discussions offline. I know I've done that with numerous folks. Of course it's usually spontaneous and voluntary.
I think with the current membership at NPN the number of folks who would sign up for a mentor program would be out the door, around the block and down the street. ;-)
What if this was a fee based service? Just thinking out loud.... $50/hour with split between NPN and the mentor? Scheduled, one on one sessions. Does NPN have any Virtual Classroom accounts like Go2Meeting or similar? That would be needed to share things like Photoshop techniques.
NPN could also provide a Portfolio Review. Again, Fee based service split between NPN and the Reviewer(presumably NPN staff.) NPN gets split because of hosting and development costs as well as Virtual room costs. Mentor gets paid to make it worth their time. Many of the mods are working photographers and like Hank, time is at a premium.
Another mentor option if it's free might be a voluntary service provided by ANY member. In other words, lots of qualified photographers with varying specialties might want to volunteer. It could be called a "Buddy System."
More random thoughts.... one of my other reservations would be the inevitable... getting a mentoree that emails you 5 questions every day.... there would most certainly need to be some constraints around a mentoring program.
Lastly, I think the current arrangement of included membership for compensation as being a moderator is fair. Start adding features like this discussion and I start thinking of fee-based activities just like the photography courses currently offered through NPN.
Probably more than enough to chew on.
Lon
There is no limit to the number of private forums that can be set up, so I think each mentor could have a forum. I think something along the lines of 30 to 60 days per session, with perhaps 2 comprehensive critiques per week. Or perhaps 10 critiques with 60 days to have photos critiqued. I also think the NPN moderators should be the mentors (if they want to be).
Let's keep this discussion going!
On the other hand - now that I've read through the thread, I do think it could be reasonable. I like Jim's suggestion to limit the number of critiques to 10 over the course of 60 days... or something to that effect. And I think a fee-based system is a good idea to make it worth the mentor's time.
I'd be willing to participate if we can hammer out some very solid guidelines.
I would look to add 50% on top of that for NPN.
I have no interest in mentoring other than making comments and responding to the occasional email I receive. However, I think it's a great idea for those moderators and others who want to do it. If you opened the mentoring program up for code and design reviews, I think I'd be more comfortable mentoring in it. (smile) I really do like the idea though.
pat
I think we would want it to be a little more than just a one-way critique - what I mean is, I think folks would find it even more helpful if they could ask one round of questions and/or clarifications about the critique. I say one round, because otherwise it could easily snowball into a never ending conversation that would suck away more time than we can give.
Pricing these sorts of things is so hard. $75/hour seems to be a pretty typical rate for 'expert work'. I suppose an in depth critique might take half an hour, so somewhere on the order of $30/critique? Is that in the right ball park do you think? When you then count up 10, for $300, it sounds like a lot of money, so perhaps it would be best to package them. The first critique will probably be more work than subsequent ones, since you can refer to old critiques.
Lastly, I would consider adding an incentive in the program to get students to grant us permission to anonymously publish one of the critiques. That way you would get more content for the monthly 'magazine', and it would give us some advertising and exposure so people would see what they would be getting. We could then also publish those critiques on our own sites to draw more traffic to the program and NPN as a whole.
Are we constrained to Image Critiques? I'm thinking many folks are happy getting the critiques they get in the galleries now. What is added value that would make someone want to pay additional money?
Rather than single image critiques, what about a 20-image portfolio review, limiting the mentors time to no more than an hour. Single images don't really show anyone someone's general ability. Everyone has at least one killer image! ;-)
Thinking out loud with other ideas that I think Pat is eluding to.
- One hour Photoshop session covering the basics. You could have Level's 1, 2 and 3, with three being more advanced. I would love to do a session on applying Tony's masks and actions and I think that would be a big hit. Bundle in his actions..... I know there's something along those lines inthe works for the NPN Shopping.
There are others who are adept at stitching and blending. Composition and lighting?
With these mini, personalized, limited "workshops" it would be very important to have a Virtual Room setup and for folks to talk one on one. It's one thing to email critiques back and forth, it's quite another to have a conversation with someone for an hour.
Gonna be a numbers game too. Say 2,000 members and say at a minimum several hundred, if not more are true beginners. 5-10 moderators volunteer for this. hmmmmm, there will need to be some qualifications and at least a wait list. Skillsets would have to be matched up. I've never seen LightRoom and only opened a RAW image once in ACR. Who knows Elements?
Lot's of ideas to consider, but I think could be whittled down to something that could work.
Lon
*General portfolio review
*Photo Shop help/instruction
*Lightroom, Aperture, Photo Shop Elements help/instruction
*Blending, HDR, etc.
*Composition and Lighting.
Once categories are defined, each of us can post our specific skill set.
I am most interested in portfolio reviews and composition. While I'm half decent with PS, Lon would probably agree I'm too dangerous to be let loose among the general populace.
I think for portfolio reviews, a maximum number of images set at 20 with a minimum number of 10 would be workable, given a one-hour block for each portfolio. If composition were added in, an additional half-hour, or hour would be reasonable.
Personally, I could not afford to do this gratis. A fee structure, with part going to NPN and part to the mentor sounds good to me. From an income tax standpoint, I believe Jim would have to issue 1099's to the mentors, who would be non-employee sub-contractors. Jim's tax man would have to confirm this, however. (Yes, Lon, I am thinking out loud again. I hope I'm not giving you a headache!)
Count me in!
Have a great weekend, everyone!
--P
The next step would be to set up a fee structure that is reasonably consistent, based on time spent. Once I see what you have in mind we can tackle that.
Thanks for brining the topic to the fore again.
--P
Agree with others that which ever services are offered they need to be well defined. For example, a "Portfolio Review" does NOT mean "mentoring." In other words, if someone pays for a portfolio review, they get a review, feedback, some suggestions, etc. and the service ends - (I expect a few back and forth emails with questions) Inevitably, a review can and does lead to mentoring. I've done some ad hoc reviews and in so many cases I would expect there are enough technical flaws (exposure, focus, dof, AND processing issues) that follow up will most certainly come up, either because the member asks the questions and just through natural communications. So, this service can't be open ended so to speak.
I'll toss out some suggested services.
"Portfolio review." should be at least 10-12 images with a max of 20. This would be defined as just that, a review. It would/should include a summary/comment on each image with suggestions on technique, composition, etc. I would think a general portfolio comment too about the persons work would be appropriate. Some follow up email exchanges would be fine, but this needs to be defined so concerns like Varina mentioned don't get out of hand (I have those concerns too.)
Portfolio Review + Mentoring. This would be more clearly defined and include some time period like 30-60 days and include perhaps a set number of "sessions" where there could be some one-on-one communication by phone and/or virtual room technology, Skype for example.
I think a virtual room (Skype, WebEx, etc.) with desktop sharing feature would be essential. Voice over IP would be a nice bonus and is featured with many of these type products. I think the monthly rates for this kind of service is very reasonable with one account being able to service all the mentoring and sharing that NPN might use.
Perhaps another service could be a longer engagement, such as a "6 Month Mentorship" where the two parties get together (via phone) once a month to review images, progress, and perhaps even some assignments.
So, just tossing out some potential "services," 1. Portfolio Review and Critique, 2. Portfolio Review and mentoring and 3. Mentorship Program.
Pricing. Personally, I can't see myself doing a 10-12 image review for less than$75 and closer to $100 or more, minimum, for up to 20 images. To me, that's about 1 evenings worth image review and write up with a couple of followups. That of course is NET to reviewer. Jim get's to figure markup. ;-)
Price goes up with mentoring of course. Have no idea how to price this, but just for discussion sake, Net to mentor $250 that would include the portfolio review/critique and up to 4hrs of one on one time via phone/web sharing. The two participants could agree on say, 4, 1hr sessions, 2 2hr sessions, etc. To be completed within 30 days. Members could purchase additional "sessions" at say, $75 per. Just thinking out loud.
A few minutes after a Google search of "photography portfolio review service" and I think adding in some markup for NPN and these prices would be consistent with what is being offered, or even low. Ranges around $200 for a 20-image review and rates of $250/hr for personal instruction.
My personal take. I SUCK at marketing. For me, reviewing 10-20 images for $100 that takes a few hours may be worth the value I would get personally from the marketing aspect, and tools, being provided by NPN for their cut. I literally just provide the service and have to do very little marketing wise, other than perhaps add a link on my own website.
In addition to the tax issue previously mentioned, there are some legal and contractual stuff to be worked out. What happens when the two parties agree to meet for a face-to-face session that's outside the scope of the NPN service? Say a member wants to pay me for individual mentoring, a "workshop" after and separate from the NPN review or mentoring? I would think NPN would want to dismiss any and all liability for any "future" or resulting services provided be any member after the initial engagement. If NPN would want a cut of any derivative business, then I'm thinking NPN would then also cover any insurance and liability too. ;-) But perhaps I'm getting ahead of things here.
Anyway, enough for chewing on and clearly just some out of the box ideas.
Lon
I think NPN could market this pretty well. I'm thinking the actual service could be provided by each of you individually, with NPN invoicing YOU for the advertising/marketing - this could simply be a cut of sell price of the service. You would be paid by directly by the member.
I would set up a section on NPN listing you as a mentor/reviewer, and promoting the services. I could also set up private forums for portfolio reviews, critiques, etc.
So, how many of you would be willing to set up a business with all of the requirements to do something like this? No matter how we set it up, this would be a requirement.
I'm really having a hard time understanding how this service would go far enough beyond what we offer in the image critiquing galleries (and off-line emails) to really justify charging for it. While I'm a web geek and really comfortable with technology, I'm not sure true mentoring and/or tutoring can be accomplished fully remotely (or done well enough to justify the rate that I - and presumably others - would have to charge to make it worth my time). I already tutor privately, and it's going very well. But, it always begins with a 1-on-1 (face-to-face) session - normally a multi-day stay at my "retreat" in the woods. After that and once I have feel for where the "student" (not sure that's the right term for someone receiving mentoring, but...) is really at photographically, remote contact - be it by email or phone or however - can have value. But...fully remote and by web and/or email contact only - well...I it just doesn't seem too far above and beyond what's already offered free here...
Just my 2 cents worth...take it for what it's worth (2 cents?).
Cheers...
Brad