Posted by Barbara Graham on February 23, 2011 at 9:25 AM
I'm posting this question here rather than emailing a moderator because I'd love feedback from as many people as possible about this.
I love trees, and I'm drawn to photographing trees. I'm trying to get to the place where my images of trees appeal to a larger audience than an audience of one (me). :) If possible, I want to do that while maintaining my own vision. This is difficult, because my vision seems to be "different." But it's still what I'm striving to achieve.
It's important that you know that I am NOT ignoring any of the feedback I'm given about my tree images. It may not be apparent, but I do have it all in mind whenever I'm shooting trees.
So my question is how long is it okay to post images of a type you're really working on but don't seem to be there yet? I don't think I can get there without feedback, so I don't think I can get there without posting images, so it's kind of a circle. But, again, it's very important that you know I am listening to all the feedback. I'm just trying to fit the feedback with what I see in my own mind.
Thank you for any input.
Posted by Lorna Taylor on February 23, 2011 at 9:39 AM
I think you can post as many trees as you like Barbara ,I love trees also .Don't know why they are just so beautiful. But by posting we can see your growth(no pun intended) as well as your vision of how you interpret trees. I look forward to seeing what you are working on. A flower is no different and we post hundreds of those.Trees come in all shapes and sizes as well! Cheers
Posted by Richard Ditch on February 23, 2011 at 10:10 AM
You can post whatever you want as long as it fits the rules of the gallery. But you cannot control who will comment on your images, or how many people will view them, or what they will say in their comments.
Personal vision is just that: personal. There's no assurance that anyone else will ever embrace your vision, but that doesn't mean to me that you should change what appeals to you because of it. But you do need to be prepared for little or even declining feedback if others don't "connect" with your developing vision.
When I fist started posting my bird photos on critique sites 10 years ago (my first post at NPN was on 3/2/2001) I encountered a lot of pushback because my style of bird in habitat didn't fit the predominant style of bird on a stick. But I stuck with it and I gradually saw the attitude change and the style become more accepted.
Each of us has different reasons for posting images, Barbara. For all of us it's nice to flash our trophies and get the back-pats, but you nicely summarize the best reason I know for posting:
So my question is how long is it okay to post images of a type you're really working on but don't seem to be there yet? I don't think I can get there without feedback, so I don't think I can get there without posting images, so it's kind of a circle. But, again, it's very important that you know I am listening to all the feedback. I'm just trying to fit the feedback with what I see in my own mind.
Honest critique and feedback are precious, and the more challenging your self-assigned task, the more precious they become. The pat-pats are nice and reassuring, but the folks who take the time to study your quest and try to help are the real treasure. You won't find them if you don't post.
Wasn't it Sly and the Family Stone in the song "Smiling Faces" back in the 70's who sang something like "Beware of the pat on the back. It's only trying to hold you back." There's a lot of that in trophy posting and superficial reviews.
Posted by Jeff Loomis on February 23, 2011 at 11:46 AM
Great post Barbara and I think there are many of us who privately asked the same question. The responses are very insightful and encouraging to us newer photographers. After reading this, I'll have to reconsider my own posting habits.
I struggle to come up with images that (in my mind) are 'worthy' of the talented folks in these galleries. If I don't post out of fear that my attempts are not on par with the more experienced photographers, then I am depriving myself. As you yourself have experienced, if you explain what your goal/vision was, you will usually get honest feedback and useful comments. That's what makes NPN such a great site. It's a learning environment for people at all skill levels.
Posted by Brian Gatlin on February 23, 2011 at 12:01 PM
Great question, Barbara, and some great responses. I agree with everything said, and would especially echo some of Rich's thoughts. I would recommend trying to articulate the vision that you are after in each post (and describing how the shot posted does or does not achieve that), so people who aren't familiar with what you're trying for have an idea of what to critique and what you are striving for. As Rich says, if it doesn't connect, you may not get a lot of feedback, but as long as you're specific about what you want, the feedback you want should be good, and should help you toward your real goal of realizing your vision. Like Hank says, you situation sounds like the perfect occasion for thoughtful critiques. Post away!
Posted by Garry Revesz on February 23, 2011 at 12:26 PM
I think your insightful posting will bring a lot of photographers out into the open Barbara. I have been a member for about a year now, have made several postings, and have contributed to many discussions where I feel I had something to "contribute". However, I have not yet posted any images even though I have been winning a number of contests in the two local camera clubs I belong to, and recently won a national wildlife contest in Canada. like you said, there are very accomplished photographers and intelligent people that contribute to this forum, and there is a lot we can learn from each other, and improve our own skill level at the same time. My holdback to posting is I just haven't had the time to complete a decent website that I can feel proud of, and I'm still struggling to figure out my style and vision. I am quite adverse to posting images just for a pat-on-back, like Hank stated, it can hold you back. So I toil in the background until I know what I am aiming for and can ask for the appropriate critique.
It'a great to see your ongoing enthusiasm! You're asking about all kinds of things, and that is great.
But I'd urge you to not try to become proficient at every type of photography at this point. Pick something you want to concentrate on, and focus (lol) on that.
Macro? get a good macro lens and learn it inside and out. Learn about composition, subjects, DOF, planes of focus, etc.
Avian? get a good longer lens, and concentrate on that. Learn bird ID, habitats, locations, ways to approach.
Landscapes? maybe a good wide-angle or even something like the great all-around 18-200 VR. Learn about exposure, perspective, comps.
Photo Art? Try many of the filters (most have free trials, buy a few, print the Instructions for use, practice and refine your technique,
I'm surely not suggesting to never take images of anything else, but there is so much to learn in any one area, it's extremely hard to learn multiple areas at once.
Great to see you learn and grow!
Sandy
Posted by Bill Chambers on February 23, 2011 at 1:20 PM
There's nothing wrong with having a "different" vision Barbara, most visionaries do! As far as I'm concerned, you can post your tree (and other) images as often as you please. I don't think anyone would object. As long as you're getting useful and helpful comments/critiques continue to post. I agree completely with what Sandy said as well - you can play with several different areas, but get really serious about one at a time to reaaly stretch and grow in that area.
Posted by Lon Overacker on February 23, 2011 at 2:28 PM
Barbara,
I would like the echo other comments here, but specifically agree with Brian's comments. As a most recent example with your current image in Landscape, I asked you what appealed to you. It's one thing to say something appeals to you, but telling us why will provide the viewer more and better opportunity to provide the feedback I think you're looking for.
The more you can articulate like Brian mentions, the better. Otherwise, what you will get is folks responding to what their "vision" is on YOUR image. That may or may not be helpful to you.
Do you respond to color? light? forms/patterns? or perhaps emotional ties to the scene, such as "I remember that tree when it was a sapling and I've watched it grow...." (very difficult to translate that to the viewer btw.)
One last comment. Feedback is great and wonderful - to a point. One should be careful because too much feedback can turn in to white noise. In other words, I might like silky water and someone else doesn't. We both offer you feedback on that subject. Now what do you do? It's white noise at some point and you should try and articulate what you prefer.
Hope some of that made sense.
Lon
Posted by Brad Mangas on February 23, 2011 at 8:21 PM
First of all Barbara you can post images of trees from now until the end of time as far as I'm concerned there's not a problem with that, if you like trees then go for it.
There is an old saying, be careful what you ask for, I don't mean that you will get bogus or non-helpful critique probably the contrary, NPN has what I believe to be the best forum's and most knowledgeable members online when it comes to photography. What I am referring to Lon touched on, feedback is great but it can also cause you to lose focus on what you want to achieve or in other words if you try to go off others comments and then apply that to your work that is not being original it is being reactive to what others are telling you. The first year or so I posted a lot of images far more than I do now, I began to realize that I was letting others critique and comments influence the way I took pictures. Once I figured this out and began to understand why I chose to do this and how I chose to do it the posting of images for the soul purpose of looking for some type of feedback in return became irrelevant. Sure getting feedback is good and necessary from experienced photographers when it comes to the mechanics of the craft but to use feedback as a guide in ones vision will (in my opinion) do more harm to your creativity than good.
You made the comment that you want your images to appeal to a larger audience. In reality to achieve any kind of success at all (and I don't just mean financially) you need your "vision" to appeal to a larger audience. Barbara by no means am I trying to be judgmental or aim this towards you or anyone specific when I say, it is my personal believe from my experiences and time spent pursuing this craft, some people are able to achieve and project a personal vision in their photography and some just can't. Kind of one of those facts of life things.
Posted by Carol Nichols on February 24, 2011 at 4:43 PM
Barbara, I was just looking in the "Shop" categories and noticed there is a free ebook all about trees called The Li'l eBook of Trees. I have not looked at it, but it may be worth your time to download it and see what you can learn from this tree book.
If you love trees, you should continue shooting them, and posting the images. First and foremost, what you do with a camera should be for you. It should give you pleasure and satisfaction. Understand that your vision of a tree will be different than anyone else's vision. What draws me to a tree or group of them is purely aesthetics. My idea of aesthetic is surely different than your idea. But that's it for me. If it attracts me as being aesthetic, that is enough motivation to try and capture it in a composition that presents the scene in as aesthetic a form as the real thing. It's not that easy to do, to be honest. I have a lot of almosts, compared to the few that I consider successful.
You should also keep in mind this. Never loose your vision, or style. It's great to get advice from others. Use that advice to improve your images and approach while refining your way of "seeing". But don't ever loose whatever "it" is that make your images and way of "seeing" your own.
One thing I find very important, is to keep it simple. More often than not, less is more. A friend once told me there are images of trees, and then there are images of landscapes with a tree in them. keep that in mind too. Are you shooting the tree, or the landscape. Is the tree a big enough part of your composition, or does it get lost in the whole picture? In my opinion, the best images of "trees" are the ones that emphasise form, and structure first. That's usually what gets my attention about an oak, or other trees with large powerful structure. Or is the graceful lines of a willow, or the tall stature of a giant redwood. The best landscape images with trees in them can also be about form and structure. But it's foliage that usually gets me excited about wider views, but not always.
Your vision will evolve, and maybe change completely. This will influence how you compose your shots, and what you shoot.
Chris
Posted by RL Potts on February 27, 2011 at 8:13 PM
Find the best trees in your area and revisit them often under various conditions. What do you have? Pines, live oaks, mangroves, sabal palms? I miss Florida. Look for things like vines, Spanish Moss, etc. Look for atmosphere and clouds. My favorite here in Oregon is fog. Silhouettes, macros, landscapes. Trees as a subject is pretty daunting. Just about every photographic application can be applied. I think it is safe to say that we all like trees. I seem to recall some good tree work by Christopher Burkett.
As you already know from my landscape posts, I am sort of obsessed by trees,,,,,,cypress trees in particular. You have received some great advice in this thread. Another thing to keep in mind when shooting may sound a bit strange, but try to stop thinking of trees as trees. As Lon says, look at the forms, shapes, motion, color, etc. Try to isolate what draws you to a particular scene without putting that object name "tree" on the subject. Then decide on how to best frame what attracted you to the scene.
The toughest assignment I ever got as a student at Brooks was back in the late 1950's, my teacher Boris "Papa" dobro gave the assignment of "Portrait of a Tree". I shot it 6 times before he finally bought into it,.for that reason, when I teach Landscape Photography each semester, one of the assignments is, "Portrait of a Tree". Nearly all of my students find it as difficult as I did. It is worth it, however.
Discussion
15 repliesI love trees, and I'm drawn to photographing trees. I'm trying to get to the place where my images of trees appeal to a larger audience than an audience of one (me). :) If possible, I want to do that while maintaining my own vision. This is difficult, because my vision seems to be "different." But it's still what I'm striving to achieve.
It's important that you know that I am NOT ignoring any of the feedback I'm given about my tree images. It may not be apparent, but I do have it all in mind whenever I'm shooting trees.
So my question is how long is it okay to post images of a type you're really working on but don't seem to be there yet? I don't think I can get there without feedback, so I don't think I can get there without posting images, so it's kind of a circle. But, again, it's very important that you know I am listening to all the feedback. I'm just trying to fit the feedback with what I see in my own mind.
Thank you for any input.
Personal vision is just that: personal. There's no assurance that anyone else will ever embrace your vision, but that doesn't mean to me that you should change what appeals to you because of it. But you do need to be prepared for little or even declining feedback if others don't "connect" with your developing vision.
When I fist started posting my bird photos on critique sites 10 years ago (my first post at NPN was on 3/2/2001) I encountered a lot of pushback because my style of bird in habitat didn't fit the predominant style of bird on a stick. But I stuck with it and I gradually saw the attitude change and the style become more accepted.
Honest critique and feedback are precious, and the more challenging your self-assigned task, the more precious they become. The pat-pats are nice and reassuring, but the folks who take the time to study your quest and try to help are the real treasure. You won't find them if you don't post.
Wasn't it Sly and the Family Stone in the song "Smiling Faces" back in the 70's who sang something like "Beware of the pat on the back. It's only trying to hold you back." There's a lot of that in trophy posting and superficial reviews.
I struggle to come up with images that (in my mind) are 'worthy' of the talented folks in these galleries. If I don't post out of fear that my attempts are not on par with the more experienced photographers, then I am depriving myself. As you yourself have experienced, if you explain what your goal/vision was, you will usually get honest feedback and useful comments. That's what makes NPN such a great site. It's a learning environment for people at all skill levels.
But I'd urge you to not try to become proficient at every type of photography at this point. Pick something you want to concentrate on, and focus (lol) on that.
Macro? get a good macro lens and learn it inside and out. Learn about composition, subjects, DOF, planes of focus, etc.
Avian? get a good longer lens, and concentrate on that. Learn bird ID, habitats, locations, ways to approach.
Landscapes? maybe a good wide-angle or even something like the great all-around 18-200 VR. Learn about exposure, perspective, comps.
Photo Art? Try many of the filters (most have free trials, buy a few, print the Instructions for use, practice and refine your technique,
I'm surely not suggesting to never take images of anything else, but there is so much to learn in any one area, it's extremely hard to learn multiple areas at once.
Great to see you learn and grow!
Sandy
I would like the echo other comments here, but specifically agree with Brian's comments. As a most recent example with your current image in Landscape, I asked you what appealed to you. It's one thing to say something appeals to you, but telling us why will provide the viewer more and better opportunity to provide the feedback I think you're looking for.
The more you can articulate like Brian mentions, the better. Otherwise, what you will get is folks responding to what their "vision" is on YOUR image. That may or may not be helpful to you.
Do you respond to color? light? forms/patterns? or perhaps emotional ties to the scene, such as "I remember that tree when it was a sapling and I've watched it grow...." (very difficult to translate that to the viewer btw.)
One last comment. Feedback is great and wonderful - to a point. One should be careful because too much feedback can turn in to white noise. In other words, I might like silky water and someone else doesn't. We both offer you feedback on that subject. Now what do you do? It's white noise at some point and you should try and articulate what you prefer.
Hope some of that made sense.
Lon
There is an old saying, be careful what you ask for, I don't mean that you will get bogus or non-helpful critique probably the contrary, NPN has what I believe to be the best forum's and most knowledgeable members online when it comes to photography. What I am referring to Lon touched on, feedback is great but it can also cause you to lose focus on what you want to achieve or in other words if you try to go off others comments and then apply that to your work that is not being original it is being reactive to what others are telling you. The first year or so I posted a lot of images far more than I do now, I began to realize that I was letting others critique and comments influence the way I took pictures. Once I figured this out and began to understand why I chose to do this and how I chose to do it the posting of images for the soul purpose of looking for some type of feedback in return became irrelevant. Sure getting feedback is good and necessary from experienced photographers when it comes to the mechanics of the craft but to use feedback as a guide in ones vision will (in my opinion) do more harm to your creativity than good.
You made the comment that you want your images to appeal to a larger audience. In reality to achieve any kind of success at all (and I don't just mean financially) you need your "vision" to appeal to a larger audience. Barbara by no means am I trying to be judgmental or aim this towards you or anyone specific when I say, it is my personal believe from my experiences and time spent pursuing this craft, some people are able to achieve and project a personal vision in their photography and some just can't. Kind of one of those facts of life things.
You should also keep in mind this. Never loose your vision, or style. It's great to get advice from others. Use that advice to improve your images and approach while refining your way of "seeing". But don't ever loose whatever "it" is that make your images and way of "seeing" your own.
One thing I find very important, is to keep it simple. More often than not, less is more. A friend once told me there are images of trees, and then there are images of landscapes with a tree in them. keep that in mind too. Are you shooting the tree, or the landscape. Is the tree a big enough part of your composition, or does it get lost in the whole picture? In my opinion, the best images of "trees" are the ones that emphasise form, and structure first. That's usually what gets my attention about an oak, or other trees with large powerful structure. Or is the graceful lines of a willow, or the tall stature of a giant redwood. The best landscape images with trees in them can also be about form and structure. But it's foliage that usually gets me excited about wider views, but not always.
Your vision will evolve, and maybe change completely. This will influence how you compose your shots, and what you shoot.
Chris
As you already know from my landscape posts, I am sort of obsessed by trees,,,,,,cypress trees in particular. You have received some great advice in this thread. Another thing to keep in mind when shooting may sound a bit strange, but try to stop thinking of trees as trees. As Lon says, look at the forms, shapes, motion, color, etc. Try to isolate what draws you to a particular scene without putting that object name "tree" on the subject. Then decide on how to best frame what attracted you to the scene.
Regards,,,,,David
Lynn.