What is the process for choosing the Avian Weekly Picks winners

OK, before I go any further with this post I want everyone to understand my motivation for starting this thread. It is not because I am upset that my images have not been chosen more often as WP winners. Those of you who know me, and there are some that do, know that I am not that kind of person. My motivation for this post is solely to gain a better understanding of how these choices are being made so I, and hopefully others, can better understand the process. That way, whoever wins, we all know better why they won. Moreover, there is monetary value in these awards as some NPN photogs use WP awards as a way of promoting themselves, and ultimately, one weekly winner wins the annual best image award that comes with a lifetime free membership to NPN. When money and competition are involved, the process for determining winners should be clear, and I do not believe this process is spelled out anywhere on the NPN site or in any other NPN materials I have seen. In the "Weekly Pick" gallery it is stated that

The Weekly Picks are selected using the following criteria:

Technical execution
Aesthetic quality (composition, use of light, visual impact, etc.)
Originality
Compliance to gallery guidelines or weekly challenge theme.

However, this does not tell me anything about the process used to pick the weekly winners. Are there scores associated with each of these criteria and the highest scoring image from each week wins the WP? If so, are all the images submitted during a given week graded using this system? If not, what process is used to choose the weekly “finalists” that are then graded? If an objective system, such as grading, is not used, how are the WPs chosen? How many people are involved in choosing the WPs and who are they? Can anyone help answer these questions? I believe the process used to choose the WPs should be as objective as possible and spelled out so all members can understand it.

I know I just opened a can of worms, and I have probably just black-balled myself from the WP club, but I really would like to know the process. Thanks.

Ron, many of your questions about the process can be answered here.

I agree that the point has come that the process should be defined in words - I will do that. It's interesting to see how that over the years, a simple weekly "in-house" recognition has grown into an "international contest" that demands this kind of detail.

Though I need to get out the door to my "real job" here is a very quick summary of how the photos are selected:

1. They are selected by the gallery moderator. If there are mulitple moderators, they alternate week-to-week in making the selections.

2. They send their selection to me. I take a look at the photo and unless there's something obviously (IMO) deficient about it, it get's the WP.

The evaluation process I use:

- Visual Impact. At first glance, does the photo grab me?
- In-camera execution. This includes sharpness, compostion, use of light, etc.
- Quality of presentation. How does it look on screen?

If the moderator's single selection IMO passes this test, it's the WP. Beyond that, if there are mulitple photos being considered (moderators will often send us multiple recommendations), it goes to the following "secondary" measures:

- Difficulty of capturing the image and/or the subject.
- Is the photo or technique used to capture it unique?

And finally, as the last-ditch "objective" tie breakers:

- If we have 2 photos that are in a "dead heat" and one member has been selected multiple times before and the other has not, it goes to the person who has not.

- Member participation (number of posts in relation to time being a member and their post/comment ratio).

Obviously, the first five measures are entirely subjective! This is why having multiple moderators in busy galleries like ESS and Avian is a good thing - no one person's "tastes" monopolize the selections. Having a couple of last-ditch objective measures to break a tie are not often used but are handy when needed.

We will never please 100% of the people 100% of the time with the selections. Thus is the nature of subjective judging.

Edit - I made some comments here about how the selection process has been questioned lately. I have deleted them as they serve no useful purpose.

I hope this quick over view helps. I will clean it up and post it in an obvious place ASAP.

Now, off to work to pay the bills!

Jim, thanks so much for your reply. I want to reiterate that my reason for posting this thread was just to get a better understanding of the process, not to pass judgement on it because I am upset or anything like that. Your reply answered my questions.

Thanks for the post on this subject Ron. This is something I've also been curious about. And Jim, thanks for your clarification.

Seems to me that this process should be as transparent as is practically possible. And if the "judging standards" are applied consistently and across the board it also seems that it would reduce any "points of contention", rather than cause them. Personally, I would hate to see the WP's and annual EP's discontinued.

I can only imagine how difficult it must be to make the WP selections, especially since it's a never-ending process from week to week. The moderators, all of them, have my appreciation for their efforts.

Art will always be subjective, and selecting WP's will always be subjective as well. As much as the technologist component in all of us would like to see a grading system with specific factors enumerated and points assigned I can't see that ever happening. Besides, that would just lead to formula photography IMO and would stifle creativity and personal vision.

I've "won" and I've "lost" WPs, just as I've won and lost camera club competitions. I've also judged a few competitions at camera clubs. It is always subjective.

The best anyone can hope for is that the judging is done honestly based on the images and not on personal relationships or personalities. I would only question a selection that had obvious technical issues. So far none of the WPs I recall have caused me to wonder about the selection even when I don't think a particular image was the "best" in any week.

Ron and Rich, thanks for chiming in on this. I agree it will always be subjective, but that does not mean there are better and worse ways to pick the WPs. I too appreciate all the work the moderators and everyone else does behind the scenes and do not want the WPs to go away. I just wanted to know the process for picking them. That is all.

Ron,

Thanks for inquiring - I've often wondered myself (kind of interesting it's us avian photogs commenting on this, hmm. . . ). What I did find very helpful is when Brad and Vincent used to give a breakdown of what images made the "final cut" and their reasoning for why they picked what photo. I completely understand that it's a time consuming process, and I would never expect moderators to do this, certainly not on a weekly basis, but again, it was extremely helpful and it was quite satisfying to know they were consindering my work. I think for me, as a relative newcomer (less than a year on NPN, and about 18 months of "serious" wildlife photography) one of the best things about the EP (aside from something to strive for) is seeing and understanding what has mass appeal, what makes a great photo, what makes one standout from many. Thanks agian to all the mods and Jim for your "breakdown"

- Luke

Hey Ron, as the moderator of the Macro gallery I can say that it can be really tough some weeks to make a pick when you have three or four that are equal in many ways. I have to say thanks to Jim and Donna for helping me out as I am on the road alot and unable to get my picks in on time, but I will say we must think alike as every pick they make is exactly the way I would have picked.

I usually judge on the difficulty of the shot, the sharpness in the details and if the focus is where it should be. The exposure, composition, depth of field, processing all comes into play. Is it a unique image with some thought process involved.

I've been involve in judging many contests and it can be really tough as there may be four or five that could be the winner but you have to pick one, and you know whatever you pick there will always be people say that you picked the wroung one.

Last fall I judged a Macro contest for Tamron along with two other judges and we all picked a different winner, So no matter who judges the outcome will usually come out different.

Even if you had a scoring system setup with a number value it would still come down to the personal opinion when the moderator applied the scores.

Mike, thanks so much for your reply. Please understand, I never said anything about the "wrong" images being picked for the WPs. I just wanted to know the process and believe the process should be able to be known by the members so they know what they are being judged on, so if they want to win a WP, they know what to shoot for. Wow, that is a poor sentence. Anyway, I also never said judging was easy or that there was not a lot of work involved. Actually I stated the opposite. Thank you for letting me know the process you use. It seems to me that, within a gallery, if two or more people (moderators) would seperately pick their top 5 images each week and then compare images, many times there might be at least one they both (all) picked. This/these images could go to Jim for the final call. This way no one person is staddled with the burden of picking the winner and individual tastes in images becomes a non issue. Just some thoughts. Again, this was just about knowing the process. Cheers. Ron

Good question. Judging is always a tough call in my experience Ron. From years of judging in camera clubs and competitions it still comes down to a subjective call by the judges(s) no matter what scoring system or criteria are applied. What comes up often are images that are technically perfect but really have minimal impact or the opposite: images that have lots of impact but have lots of technical flaws. As a judge I always preferred the latter, both because those types of images communicated something and also because it's so much easier to comment and suggest improvements for technique. As for defining the process further than Jim already has that seems like a tough one to me.

Given the number of images that show up every week it's a big job, particularly in the really busy galleries like Avian.
I think the moderators and Jim do a really good job of picking. Not that I agree that every selection would necessarily be my choice but they do seem to be consistently choosing high quality and high impact images.

I agree, Jim outlined what he does very well. However, nothing has been presented here or anywhere else that I can find on the site that explains how the moderators go about picking the image(s) that is(are) sent to Jim. And given what Jim said, that he generally goes with the image that is sent to him by the moderators almost every time, the process the moderators use is the one that really needs to be available to the members if they are to understand the process for picking WPs. I agree, everyone does a good job of picking nice images. All I want from this is to know the process.

Ron: I'm hoping that Jim will move this thread to the general discussion forum as I think it has appeal site wide. I've been the moderator on the third busiest gallery (Flora) for about three years. Jim has provided the official process and I agree with it 100% and will add little to it. For me there are myriad factors that go into the final choice with several images each week that would be defensible picks. Its a rare week that a single image is head and shoulders above the rest. I do make a conscious effort to be impartial with regard to subject matter, mode of capture, and presentation. We have wildflowers and cultivated flowers, mushrooms, trees, indoor "studio" shots, wide views and macros. Because of the diversity I think it would be hard to apply any objective standards. One thing Jim didn't mention specifically is the response to the image by other participants. That can be much more than simply noting the number of comments because several of us veterans always garner more comments even on what for us may be substandard images. Sometimes when I post a stinker I get many statements of condolence. I pay very close attention to the comments posted by the more accomplished members and am especially attentive when an image I like a lot isn't received so well by others or vice versa. It is a responsibility that I take very seriously if for no other reason than knowing that, while you posed the question, there are probably a whole lot of folks around the site that wonder the same thing. Finally, despite your photography being for the birds, aim that big lens at some interesting Flora on your next shoot and let us see what you can come up with. We would love to see some of your work on the finest Flora gallery on the planet. >=))>

Bill, thanks. I am glad some moderators are commenting. I understand what Jim does, but wanted to know the whole process including how the moderators work it. I will see what I can do to get some Flora shots. Cheers. Ron

Ok, now I am getting hate mail. I knew this would happen, and I never should have brought up this question. I do not know how many times I have to say it. My only motivation for this post was to get a better understanding of the process. I know for a fact that I am not the only one who wants to know and have it spelled out better. I am very upset that a person cannot ask a perfectly valid question without getting villianized for it. Look at my record on this forum. I hold an almost 16:1 comment to post ratio and all of my comments are done with tact and to be constructive. But, no, Ron is really just a self-centered, only cares about himself type guy and does not like the images that are being picked over his and wants the process changed. What a great false face Ron puts on. I never once said anything about the choices being made. All I wanted to know is the process and I know there are many of you out there that wanted to know too. So I had the gutts to ask. All I can say, is, thanks a lot for your support. Not.

It's a fine question that you have posed Ron (kind of thought about it myself from time to time) and from what I read in the thread above I see nothing but positive , supportive comments. The moderators, and others, have chimed in to help flesh out their personal methodology in the selection process. Did I miss something??? It seems to me that the identical question on this very matter was posted not that long ago and answered by Jim (I believe) in a similar manner. I hope you are kidding about "hate mail", that's just ridiculous if true. I truly don't think anyone was implying that you felt the selection process was unfair Ron. Just thought I would step in here to get this back on track; from the sidelines this looks like a clear case of misunderstanding.

I have received private emails on which my post prior to this is based.

I have received private emails on which my post prior to this is based.

That is wrong that someone has taken you to task about asking this. In fact, I have been contacted via email by a few very highly respected members over the last few months asking this exact same question!

It is a legitimate question, one that deserves a full response. If there's any blame to cast here, it would be on me for not responding to these inquiries more quickly.

These selection criteria will be posted officially on the site today. Ron, my thanks for bringing it up in this forum!

PS - please note the edit in my original post in this thread. My apologies if those comments were the source of your grief.

Ron,

There was nothing wrong with your question as far as I can see, your question is about the process, not about getting or not getting the WP or about disputing the moderators choice for any particular WP.

I have wondered why some of my images have been picked for the WPs. Was it the light, the techs, the comp, the subject or all of the above? I'm not sure, but I do think it would be helpful to know.

Knowing why an image is selected as an Avian WP is useful information not just for the person who receives the WP but for all of the members who are here to gain better skills, knowledge and techniques. Knowing why it stood out from the other fine images posted each week would be helpful for us all.

The site has been updated with information on this process. Details can be found in this thread.

Thanks, Jim.

Ron, I think your question is totally valid. Before i became a mod i didnt know who made the picks and I didnt know mods were ineligible either. The more info the better I think. One word about the the Weekly Challenge Gallery, which I noted in a previous thread in the General Discussion Forum, is that my primary consideration in making a pick is "how well the photo meets the theme". So, an image that is technically perfect or very appealing may lose out to an image with a couple minor flaws, if I feel the former image doesnt quite match the challenge theme.

Hi Ron,
I would have replied to your thread earlier but I was in the Ecuadorian Amazon leading a tour when your posted this thread.

A little bit, but not a lot, has changed since Nick has become a moderator so for everyone I will detail the mechanics of how we make the pick in avian and then talk some about the evaluation process.

Nick and I are alternating in terms of who makes the final pick or sends the final picks to Jim. However, if both of us are available (I haven´t been the past few weeks) we assist each other. For example if it´s Nick´s turn to make the pick I send him my 3 or 4 favorite shots for the week. He can pick one of the shots I send him, or can pick a different shot or lastly he has the option to send more than one shot to Jim and Donna for the final selection. If it´s my turn Nick will send me several candidates for the pick and the process is reversed. In the future if one of us is out of town and not involved in helping with the selection the person making the pick will send at least 2 photos to Jim and Donna. This way, every week at least 2 people will be involved in making the selections.

No numeric scoring system is used. If we are in town Nick and I both view almost every image in the gallery during a given week and flag photos that we think are possible candidates for the shot of the week. At the end of the week we review the photos that we have flagged and begin to narrow down the selections.

I have to agree with Richard Ditch and the other members who have said that by it´s nature it is a subjective process and decision. For example the first criterion that Jim E has listed is ¨visual impact, does the photo grab me¨´. This is similar to what I had described to you last May as my first criterion - I described it as ¨Is my reaction ¨wow¨ when I open the photograph and view it.´´ This criterion is subjective - what has visual impact and wow effect for me and Nick and Jim will be at least slightly different. I personally think that this difference is fine and it´s good that we now have 3 different people who at times will be making the final pick. Many photo contests change their judge or judges from year to year to keep from the same kind of images being picked as winner´s every year. In the avian section it will change from week to week.

I also use all of the other factors that Jim mentioned when he listed his criterion including in camera execution, quality of presentation, difficulty of capturing the image or subject and uniqueness of photo.

Like Jim if I have 2 photos that I´m having a difficult time picking between I will look at the amount of WP´s and participation of the 2 members. If one has been a long time member and participated a fair bit but never won an EP the pick will go to him or her over someone who has won several WP´s.

Every week there are many fine images posted and it´s certainly not an easy process for Nick, Jim and I to pick the winners.

Great thread!
Thanks to all -
Sandy r