Posted by Paulo A.Lopes on January 12, 2010 at 8:47 AM
Hello guys and girls!
I would like to know somethings about night camping on winter. First, what was you lowest temperature you got? What is more important, the tent or sleeping bag? What are the most important cautions and gear to make a night camp on winter comfortable with snow and lower temps? In case of dramatic weather change what is the best thing to do? And finally if someone had some odd and dangerous episode i also would like to know what you have done to resolve the situation.
Thanks in advanced! the reason im asking all this questions its because im preparing a night camp on estrela NP that is full of snow and the location its a bit remote and honestly i would like to know more about this, and i know that mostly NPM photographers do this very often.
Posted by Jim DeWitt on January 12, 2010 at 12:05 PM
Paulo -
I've camped at temperatures as low as -40 C. Honestly, it's not much fun that cold. And mistakes can become very serious very, very quickly. The goals are to keep dry, keep warm and keep hydrated. None is all that easy. The kind of gear you take depends on the conditions you expect. For example, if you expect the temperature to be around 0 C, then getting wet is a big problem; if you expect -30 C, then keeping warm is the problem. That controls issues like the kind of sleeping bag (i.e., synthetic vs. down), the kind of footgear, and a host of other concerns.
You need to read _a lot_ about cold weather camping, and do a few practice nights where it is possible to get out quickly and safely if you get in a jam.
The biggest problem I always have is keeping my camera gear operating. Between the impact of cold on batteries and condensation in the tent, it can be a real challenge.
But practice and knowledge are the keys. Otherwise, you are setting yourself up to be miserable at best, and in life-threatening situations at worst.
I have camped, climbed, and photographed in all manner of winter-like conditions at both lower elevations and high altitude, so I heartily agree with Jim's points.
Like your photography, winter camping requires a 'system' approach to staying warm, dry, hydrated and well nourished. You have to study and practice a new skill set. In light of this, my most strongly stated tip is this: Don't go out alone! Tie in with someone who has the requisite experience so that you can learn from them.
Are you planning on going out alone? Winter camping for the inexperienced, or not in the company of somebody experienced, isn't something I'd recommend particularly when you use the word remote.
The biggest concern when winter camping is not getting cold but getting wet. For instance you need some sort of waterproof barrier between the tent and the snow. Body heat is enough to melt the snow and draw it up through the tent floor and into the sleeping bag if you don't. The greater cold comes from the ground not the air so something like a Thermorest for insulation is good.
My winter camping gear consists of a double wall tent, Woods 4 star Arctic sleeping bag with a raw silk lining to wick away perspiration. I won't use any liquid fuel in a tent, for either cooking or heating, but do have a candle lantern which does hold the frost away. Dress in layers and have a change of clothing.
You need to plan and prepare for the unexpected. On an autumn shoot some years ago I got caught out by a an unpredicted snowstorm. About a foot and a half of snow and high winds caused me to lay over for two days before I could start to paddle out.
it will be interesting to see the responses of others with winter camping. I suspect most of them will have gone out with others who were experienced before attempting solo.
Rather than echo other advice, I'll just throw one thing out there that often gets overlooked. But I strongly recommend you become informed through other venues, like experienced friends, as there's a lot to consider. If you're in mountainous terrain, there's also avalanche danger.
My biggest issue with winter camping is that everything freezes... that means you food, and your water, too. If you're skinny with a high metabolism like me, then you need to eat a LOT to stay warm - it's incredible how big a difference it makes. For extended trips 5,000 Cal/day is not unreasonable. Eating frozen food is hard. For snacks/lunch I try to pick things that will not freeze. Cliff bars, cheese, powerbars, and most other bars, freeze, and will have you working for an hour to thaw them.... so think carefully about what you hope to snack on.
Posted by Paulo A.Lopes on January 12, 2010 at 7:14 PM
Thanks for the warnings and tips. Im not going alone not crazy enough, its gonna be me and more two guys. I gonna follow your tips and going to read more about this. Once again thanks!
Posted by Scott Fricke on January 13, 2010 at 12:56 AM
I'll reiterate the importance of staying dry. When you hike you and are dressed warm you sweat, when you are carrying a backpack with camping gear AND photography gear you sweat a lot more. Dress in layers so that as you warm up while hiking to your destination you can take off some layers so your clothes do not get wet with sweat. I always carry an extra set of clothes and socks in case something happens and my clothes get drenched. Nothing is worse that spending a cold night in wet clothes.
Camera batteries die quicker in the cold. I always keep my batteries in my sleeping bag with me to keep them as warm as possible. During the day I keep them in a chest pocket to keep them warm as well.
Have a couple different ways to start a fire. A lighter is great, unless it runs out of fuel. Bring waterproof matches or some other way of lighting a fire as well. Bring a stove if you can so you can eat warm food. It makes a big difference on how you will feel after a long day in the cold. Make sure you bring warm clothes as the worst thing for trying to concentrate on photography is being cold and uncomfortable. Again, layers help as you will go from hiking and generating heat to standing around, waiting for the right light or taking time to set up a shot and getting cold. Having a waterproof outer layer of clothes also helps if you need to kneel or lay down in the snow or on wet ground to take a photograph.
Here's a quote from Mountaineering-The Freedom of the Hills that I read many years ago...
"Mountains are always falling apart. Much of the knowledge and skill of the mountaineer is devoted to being somewhere else at the time."
This book is still one of the bibles for the serious mountain traveler. It has been updated many times, and is still in print in its 7th edition. Highly recommended.
There seems to be this feeling that a electronic GPS unit will keep one out of trouble, and a cell phone call will get the SAR guys headed your way when you get in a pickle. Not!
Invest in the best low tech GPS available: a topographic map and a good magnetic compass. Learn how to use them if you don't already know how.
I am glad you're not going out alone. Aside from the safety aspect, you'll have someone with which to share the misery, and the joys!
--P
Posted by Joe Sulik on January 13, 2010 at 9:02 AM
A canvas tent and a roaring woodburning stove, it can be 80 degrees in the tent while it drops below zero outside, I deffintly advise bringing an experienced friend. Good luck.
Posted by John W. Wall on January 13, 2010 at 1:04 PM
Stay at the ski lodge at night and you'll feel more like doing photography during the day. ;)
Posted by Paulo A.Lopes on January 13, 2010 at 5:47 PM
No way John! Lodge is too much expensive! i prefer to camp next to my car on the road !
Posted by Paulo A.Lopes on January 13, 2010 at 5:56 PM
Preston Birdwell:
I bought the book. Took a look at amazon website and i feel that i can learn a lot with it.
Posted by Dan Borzynski on January 16, 2010 at 12:53 AM
I have to ask a question which has not been asked: How much camping and outdoor experience do you already have? Winter camping in a vaguely remote area, even with friends, is NOT the time or place to learn. Mistakes at 70F are inconvenient. The same mistakes at 10F can be deadly.
Beyond that, all of the advice above has been good, especially that about staying dry.
Posted by Stan Rose on January 16, 2010 at 9:22 AM
If you want to stay warm, i recommend two women rather than guys.
But if you must camp with the guys, make sure they are leaner than you--that way if things go wrong and you have to resort to cannibalism you will be more likely to outlast them.
Posted by David Taylor on January 17, 2010 at 12:12 PM
Yes, but Stan - if they are leaner than you, there won't be much meat on their bones to feed off. This kind of goes along with the old joke "You don't have to outrun the bear, just 1 fellow hiker".
On a more serious note, one thing no one has mentioned - have a plan & make sure other people know that plan. Then stick to that plan. If something happens, people have to know where to look. Consider a SPOT geotracker, but don't rely on it. "Mountaineerig - Freedom of the Hills" is a great resource, as Preston has already pointed out.
Posted by Paulo A.Lopes on January 17, 2010 at 2:57 PM
Stan theres no doubt! Specially during the night yes i did some winter camping but not so far from the civilization. Our winter isn't so cold, temps could be 0 º to -5, MAX - 10º celsius.
To avoid the 'turning over by mutual consent' scenario, either have small friends, or a large tent. I say this mostly tongue in cheek, but be sure your shelter is large enough. Don't underestimate the amount of room three adults and their gear will need for relative comfort.
Another essential is a good book. Getting storm-bound in a tent without anything to read can be torture when you and your friends have run out of jokes to tell.
David's comment about having a plan, and ensuring others know it is excellent advice. The only thing worse than no plan, is two plans. Stick to your plan as closely as possible so that if there's a problem, the chances of a positive outcome will be much improved.
Paulo, glad you obtained the book.
--P
Posted by Bob Davis on January 24, 2010 at 5:04 PM
Lots of good tips and advice. If I might add a couple of more from a Search and Rescue specialist and SAR instructor. "Cotton Kills" don't wear cotton. Stay with synthetics or wool. That includes socks and under garments. I will also parrot what others have said: Staying dry is very important. Snow is not the only way to get wet. Perspiration from lugging 40 pounds of camera equipment up a hill side can be just as dangerous. Dress in layers and peel and add as nessessary. Also not all stove fuels will work at altitude so just be aware. (I'm not familiar with Estrela NP or it's altitude.) One last thing, have a good mental attitude and have fun. May the light be with you
-5 or -10 and near to civilization seems that it's not big trouble,
I am not expert on camping, but I know about -10C and I think it's not big trouble if your are near to civilization, just keep dry, and cover your head (the most easy way to lost the body heat is uncovering the head).
...and, take with you 2 or 3 liters of tequila and use it as needed (kidding)
Posted by Paulo A.Lopes on January 25, 2010 at 10:00 AM
alcohol... i know that technique is a mistake. You lose more body heat and energy..
Posted by Paulo A.Lopes on January 25, 2010 at 10:01 AM
" alcohol... i know that technique is a mistake. You lose more body heat and energy.."
Yes, when I wrote kidding I meant kidding
I hope all goes well in your first camping trip
Posted by Carl Donohue on January 26, 2010 at 5:43 AM
I am not expert on camping, but I know about -10C and I think it's not big trouble if your are near to civilization, just keep dry, and cover your head (the most easy way to lost the body heat is uncovering the head).
Hey Enrique
I'd suggest this is unsound advice. People can die from hypothermia at 50'F and even warmer temperatures.
I'd also reiterate the 'don't wear cotton' mantra, but I think 'cotton kills' is a bit over the top. It sounds like something Gary Larson would've had a ball with.
First, what was you lowest temperature you got?
Minus 40
What is more important, the tent or sleeping bag?
Your sleeping bag, by far.
What are the most important cautions and gear to make a night camp on winter comfortable with snow and lower temps?
Dry insulating clothing. Wool is awesome, and fleece can be great too. Down jackets rock. What's the most important caution? Depends entirely on the situation. bring 2 sleeping pads, one closed cell foam pad and a more comfortable thicker open cell pad, or, better yet, buy an Exped downmat. Whatever temps you expect, I'd go with a bag AT LEAST 15deg warmer (i.e., if you think minus 20deg is possible, bring a minus 40 bag).
On 2nd thoughts, here's my recommendations on 'most important'. DON'T GET COLD - the single most important thing in your gear and in your safety bag is P-R-E-V-E-N-T-I-O-N; remember, it's infinitely harder to warm up than it is to stay warm.
Layering means taking your clothes on and off and on and off, all day long. I spend most of my winter dressing and undressing, it seems, but it works.
In case of dramatic weather change what is the best thing to do?
There's no answer to this kind of question. It depends entirely on the situation. People are always looking for objective information and the outside is a subjective world.
And finally if someone had some odd and dangerous episode i also would like to know what you have done to resolve the situation.
I've had a lady on a trip get pretty cold and wet after I'd gone to retrieve her pack that was a mile or 2 back up the mountain. I left her and her husband and 2 other folks under a shelter. The temperature was around freezing, a wind blowing, and that nasty freezing chilly drizzle falling. 2 of the 4 people under the shelter were what I'd call 'experienced' outdoors people.
My last words were for her to sit tight in the sleeping bag, and one of the fellows to make her some hot tea/cocoa/water/whatever. To keep her warm dry clothes on and wait for me to come back.
I got back and she was sitting in a damp light shirt, shivering, holding her cup without drinking. Pretty much the only think they did from my instructions were to wait for me to get back.
I could tell she was OK, but way colder than I'd like for someone to be. Took off her damp top and put on all her dry layers and some of mine. Then sat her back in the sleeping bag, and watched her slowly sip 2 cups of tea. She slowly warmer up, and was fine. We had an hour or hike before we could camp, so we delayered a bit before heading off, and that hike warmed her up well. Once we got to camp, it was straight into the tent, warm clothes on while I put up the kitchen shelter, and made some soup. She was fine.
The issue could've easily been a bad one if I'd been a little longer getting back to the group. The situation reinforced to me that even experienced people make stupid mistakes. Her husband is a vet, and has WAY more medical training and expertise than I do, yet he was sitting beside her while she shivered. She'd gotten out of the bag and extra dry clothes because she said she was 'warm' while I was gone.
If even 5C in water can cause hypothermia within minutes
The strong wind and water are something to be avoided.
"First, what was you lowest temperature you got?"
I wrote -10C
-40C ? never...
The temperature of-10C is the danger, of course, but there are already clothes for which thermal -10C is not a big problem. Of course, without the right clothes 1C can be fatal.
However, although there are many risk factors you describe very well
Although I think will agree that water and strong wind are factors that we can more quickly cause hypothermia within minutes, so it is that clothing should be special.
In my comment just try to emphasize that if you find one near civilization (where one can get help quickly) and if temperatures are expected, ranging from 0C to -10C and if you have the right clothes, then and only thus will not be in such high risk, at least, compared with -40C and removed from civilization
Either way, you're right, in that we should not underestimate any temperature near or below 0C
Posted by Carl Donohue on January 26, 2010 at 6:51 PM
Hey Enrique
I forget the temperature exactly, but it's something like 65 or even70 deg F at which the human body loses heat faster than it generates it, unless moving, etc. One does not have to be 'cold' to start to suffer the effects of hypothermia. Add to that something like an injury or even fatigue, and hypothermia is an enormously dangerous possibility at what we like to think of as mild temperatures.
People forget - we, as creatures, evolved in hot climates on the grasslands and savannahs of what is called Africa. We're not built to deal with cold weather. As an example, an arctic fox' metabolism doesn't change, even while the animal is stationary until temperatures get down to minus 40F. A musk ox down to minus 70F. Those are creatures adapted for cold temperatures. We do better in a temperature range of 80degF.
I don't like to see advice such as "there are already clothes for which thermal -10C is not a big problem."
The heat can be measured with a thermometer
The cold, however, is a thermal sensation (perception)
"I do not like to see advice such as" there are already clothes for thermal-10C Which is not a big problem. "
is right, and there Thermal clothing for extreme temperatures of -60C
"Clothes do not save people."
He is also right in this. If a person is immersed in water at 5C for 10 minutes and then goes and puts on a thermal clothing, will remain at risk of hypothermia
One of the things that touched me see frequently, as people, even with experience, often use very good clothes, but still have their heads not well cover.
This scientifically proven that to bring the head not well cover is one of quickest ways to lose body heat.
At this point I have no way to convey the article that addresses this issue, but if you look on the internet, sure to find it.
In extremely cold temperatures is not a good idea to go without cover our head. . There is an irony in this because the cold is felt in the feet and hands more than elsewhere in the body. The tendency is to cover over our feet and hands, when the problem is that we're losing heat because the head is not well cover.
It is proven scientifically that while we losing body heat, the body reacts by sending most of the heat to the thorax (heart and lungs) and the head, even sacrificing the limbs (each time sending less heat to the extremities).
Any of us can do a little experiment. at temperatures close to 0C or less, and walk out with heads not well cover, and beginning to feel cold in the feet and hands, cover your head and notice the difference. Cover your face with a balaclava and maybe even going to feel heat.
Remember that the first thing you lose a mountaineer exposed to extremely low temperatures, are the toes and hands.
"I forget the temperature exactly, but it's something like 65 or even70 deg F at which the human body loses heat faster than it generates it, unless moving, etc. One does not have to be 'cold' to start to suffer the effects of hypothermia. Add to that something like an injury or even fatigue, and hypothermia is an enormously dangerous possibility at what we like to think of as mild temperatures"
I can understand the problem
You are talking about living with a climate close to 0C with tropical clothing
I'm talking about someone who lives with close to-10C with appropriate clothing for winter
I think the clothes here makes the difference, do not you think?
The man has lived many years in cold winter thanks to the skins (clothing) and our days, science allows covering up with clothing lighter and with much better results.
It is a fact that we live in climates of-10C,
Posted by Carl Donohue on January 27, 2010 at 12:25 AM
You are talking about living with a climate close to 0C with tropical clothing
I'm talking about someone who lives with close to-10C with appropriate clothing for winter
I think the clothes here makes the difference, do not you think?
The man has lived many years in cold winter thanks to the skins (clothing) and our days, science allows covering up with clothing lighter and with much better results.
It is a fact that we live in climates of-10C,
Hey Enrique
No - this is not correct. People do NOT biologically acclimate to cold weather. We DO however acclimate to warmer weather - a result of our evolving in hot temperatures.
You miss my point about 'clothes don't save lives' - simply wearing clothes rated down to minus 10deg, or minus 60 deg does NOT save lives, regardless of the temperature. Well-dressed people have died in much warmer temperatures - there are too many other factors that come into play. Dehydration, not eating well, fatigue, injury, etc, etc all can lead to people making poor decisions, getting into trouble, and all the clothes in the world won't stop that, nor 'rescue' anyone once they go into hypothermia.
Dress well, but good practice in your BEHAVIOR will be as important as anything else.
"No - this is not correct. People do NOT biologically acclimate to cold weather. We DO however acclimate to warmer weather - a result of our evolving in hot temperatures. "
I'm not saying that we acclimated, but we adapt:)
"Dress well, but good practice in your BEHAVIOR will be as important as anything else. "
I agree with you
The clothing is to maintain body heat, the rest depends on our behavior,
we are not talking about the same? heheh :)
I also write something about it in my previous lines
"One of the things that touched me see frequently, as people, even with experience, often use very good clothes, but still have their heads not well cover. "
-10C it's not the big problem, the big problem may be our behavior
Enrique Vizcarra
Posted by David Graham on February 3, 2010 at 4:04 PM
Paulo,
You've recieved a ton of reat advice, so I'll not repeat it. My personal low temp night was -25. My only comment is that my comfort when winter camping became much increased when I started hammock camping. I've slept on and under snaw, but the hammock is now my top choice! If you'll be in an area where a hammock could be strung, I'd urge its use. The secrets are: quality sleeping bag rated for lower temp than you can reasonably expect to experience; get in it DRY: and have a good wide and long insulating pad of of closed foam underneath you in the hammock. Rig a 12' x 12" fly diagonally above you with its free corners pegged to the ground to either side of you and you'll wake surprised at the great night's sleep you had!
The heat can be measured with a thermometer
The cold, however, is a thermal sensation (perception)
This is a somewhat misleading statement, so I'm going to put my physics hat on for a minute.
Heat is energy and is measured in calories. One (1) calorie is the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one (1) degree Celsius.
Therefore, temperature, as measured by a thermometer of some kind, provides to us information about the relative "hotness" or "coldness" of an object, not the amount of heat energy that is absorbed or released by the system.
"Heat is energy and is measured in calories. One (1) calorie is the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one (1) degree Celsius. "
Ok
"Therefore, temperature, as measured by a thermometer of some kind, provides to us information about the relative "hotness" or "coldness" "
The heat can be measured
The cold does not
You're not going to find a physics book that explains how to measure the cold in the heat function
It is a misconception that the cold is a function measuring the heat
The heat loss is not equal to cold
If you are to 100C and drops to 90C Temperature Gauge you will not feel cold
The cold is a wind chill that deals only with the loss of body heat (below average 37C) and nothing else
The cold is body reaction to lost of body heat (body reacts consuming calories to warm up us), and we can feel cold even when the body heat keep at 37C.
At the same temperature people lose heat differently and therefore may feel more or less cold. (perception)
The point is that:
A-10C with the appropriate clothing, the body Temperature Gauge can be kept stable and therefore do not feel cold and can survive without problems.
Of course, our behavior can put us in danger, even when crossing an street in the city
"The thermometer 32F mark, however due to the wind the thermal sensation is of 20F
Two measurements are applied here, which is correct? of the thermometer or the thermal sensation? and why?
Both are correct. However, the ambient air temperature, in this case 32F, is a direct measurement, while the wind chill is a calculated value based upon the ambient air temperature and wind speed.
I'd like to address your other remarks, as well, Enrique.
You quoted me sa saying, "Therefore, temperature, as measured by a thermometer of some kind, provides to us information about the relative "hotness" or "coldness" " .
Just to clairfy, here is my statement in toto: "Therefore, temperature, as measured by a thermometer of some kind, provides to us information about the relative "hotness" or "coldness" of an object, not the amount of heat energy that is absorbed or released by the system."
The "hotness" or "coldness" of the air, or an object is a sensation only. We say that an object, or the air, is "cold" relative to an object, or the air, whose temperature is greater than than that with which we are comparing it to. The converse is also true.
Heat can be measured.
True
The cold does not.
I never said we could measure 'cold'. I said we could measure relative 'hotness' or 'coldness' as a sensation, by using a thermometer.
You're not going to find a physics book that explains how to measure the cold in the heat function.
This is true, and I never said that was the case.
In strict physical terms, there is no such condition called "cold", there is only a lesser quantity of heat in the system. We call something "cold" when it's temperature is lower than some arbitrary threshold; our personal comfort zone, for example. To illustrate this, I would not feel 'cold' (a sensation) if the ambient air temperature dropped from 39 C to 29 C, but I would feel 'cold' if the temperature dropped from 25 C to 0 C.
"If you are to 100C and drops to 90C Temperature Gauge you will not feel cold
I know I wouldn't, since the temperatures in your statement are that of boiling water and one only slightly lower!
"The cold is a wind chill that deals only with the loss of body heat and nothing else "
There is no wind chill if the wind speed is zero, but there would still be heat lost from the body to the air because heat flows from an object with more heat to an object with less heat until thermal equilibrium is reached. Heat loss from the body to the air is convective in nature. That is why wind increases the rate of heat loss.
"At the same temperature people lose heat differently and therefore may feel more or less cold. (perception)
The point is that:
A-10C with the appropriate clothing, the body Temperature Gauge can be kept stable and therefore do not feel cold and can survive without problems.
Of course, our behavior can put us in danger, even when crossing an street in the city "
Agreed. I will add that -10C (14F) is well within the danger zone for most people. The effects of this temperature would be exacerbated by high altitude, relative humidity, and any wind.
Discussion
35 repliesI would like to know somethings about night camping on winter. First, what was you lowest temperature you got? What is more important, the tent or sleeping bag? What are the most important cautions and gear to make a night camp on winter comfortable with snow and lower temps? In case of dramatic weather change what is the best thing to do? And finally if someone had some odd and dangerous episode i also would like to know what you have done to resolve the situation.
Thanks in advanced! the reason im asking all this questions its because im preparing a night camp on estrela NP that is full of snow and the location its a bit remote and honestly i would like to know more about this, and i know that mostly NPM photographers do this very often.
I've camped at temperatures as low as -40 C. Honestly, it's not much fun that cold. And mistakes can become very serious very, very quickly. The goals are to keep dry, keep warm and keep hydrated. None is all that easy. The kind of gear you take depends on the conditions you expect. For example, if you expect the temperature to be around 0 C, then getting wet is a big problem; if you expect -30 C, then keeping warm is the problem. That controls issues like the kind of sleeping bag (i.e., synthetic vs. down), the kind of footgear, and a host of other concerns.
You need to read _a lot_ about cold weather camping, and do a few practice nights where it is possible to get out quickly and safely if you get in a jam.
The biggest problem I always have is keeping my camera gear operating. Between the impact of cold on batteries and condensation in the tent, it can be a real challenge.
But practice and knowledge are the keys. Otherwise, you are setting yourself up to be miserable at best, and in life-threatening situations at worst.
Like your photography, winter camping requires a 'system' approach to staying warm, dry, hydrated and well nourished. You have to study and practice a new skill set. In light of this, my most strongly stated tip is this: Don't go out alone! Tie in with someone who has the requisite experience so that you can learn from them.
-P
Are you planning on going out alone? Winter camping for the inexperienced, or not in the company of somebody experienced, isn't something I'd recommend particularly when you use the word remote.
The biggest concern when winter camping is not getting cold but getting wet. For instance you need some sort of waterproof barrier between the tent and the snow. Body heat is enough to melt the snow and draw it up through the tent floor and into the sleeping bag if you don't. The greater cold comes from the ground not the air so something like a Thermorest for insulation is good.
My winter camping gear consists of a double wall tent, Woods 4 star Arctic sleeping bag with a raw silk lining to wick away perspiration. I won't use any liquid fuel in a tent, for either cooking or heating, but do have a candle lantern which does hold the frost away. Dress in layers and have a change of clothing.
You need to plan and prepare for the unexpected. On an autumn shoot some years ago I got caught out by a an unpredicted snowstorm. About a foot and a half of snow and high winds caused me to lay over for two days before I could start to paddle out.
it will be interesting to see the responses of others with winter camping. I suspect most of them will have gone out with others who were experienced before attempting solo.
My biggest issue with winter camping is that everything freezes... that means you food, and your water, too. If you're skinny with a high metabolism like me, then you need to eat a LOT to stay warm - it's incredible how big a difference it makes. For extended trips 5,000 Cal/day is not unreasonable. Eating frozen food is hard. For snacks/lunch I try to pick things that will not freeze. Cliff bars, cheese, powerbars, and most other bars, freeze, and will have you working for an hour to thaw them.... so think carefully about what you hope to snack on.
Camera batteries die quicker in the cold. I always keep my batteries in my sleeping bag with me to keep them as warm as possible. During the day I keep them in a chest pocket to keep them warm as well.
Have a couple different ways to start a fire. A lighter is great, unless it runs out of fuel. Bring waterproof matches or some other way of lighting a fire as well. Bring a stove if you can so you can eat warm food. It makes a big difference on how you will feel after a long day in the cold. Make sure you bring warm clothes as the worst thing for trying to concentrate on photography is being cold and uncomfortable. Again, layers help as you will go from hiking and generating heat to standing around, waiting for the right light or taking time to set up a shot and getting cold. Having a waterproof outer layer of clothes also helps if you need to kneel or lay down in the snow or on wet ground to take a photograph.
"Mountains are always falling apart. Much of the knowledge and skill of the mountaineer is devoted to being somewhere else at the time."
This book is still one of the bibles for the serious mountain traveler. It has been updated many times, and is still in print in its 7th edition. Highly recommended.
There seems to be this feeling that a electronic GPS unit will keep one out of trouble, and a cell phone call will get the SAR guys headed your way when you get in a pickle. Not!
Invest in the best low tech GPS available: a topographic map and a good magnetic compass. Learn how to use them if you don't already know how.
I am glad you're not going out alone. Aside from the safety aspect, you'll have someone with which to share the misery, and the joys!
--P
I bought the book. Took a look at amazon website and i feel that i can learn a lot with it.
Beyond that, all of the advice above has been good, especially that about staying dry.
But if you must camp with the guys, make sure they are leaner than you--that way if things go wrong and you have to resort to cannibalism you will be more likely to outlast them.
On a more serious note, one thing no one has mentioned - have a plan & make sure other people know that plan. Then stick to that plan. If something happens, people have to know where to look. Consider a SPOT geotracker, but don't rely on it. "Mountaineerig - Freedom of the Hills" is a great resource, as Preston has already pointed out.
Another essential is a good book. Getting storm-bound in a tent without anything to read can be torture when you and your friends have run out of jokes to tell.
David's comment about having a plan, and ensuring others know it is excellent advice. The only thing worse than no plan, is two plans. Stick to your plan as closely as possible so that if there's a problem, the chances of a positive outcome will be much improved.
Paulo, glad you obtained the book.
--P
Very fun, lol....
Paulo A.Lopes,
-5 or -10 and near to civilization seems that it's not big trouble,
I am not expert on camping, but I know about -10C and I think it's not big trouble if your are near to civilization, just keep dry, and cover your head (the most easy way to lost the body heat is uncovering the head).
...and, take with you 2 or 3 liters of tequila and use it as needed (kidding)
" alcohol... i know that technique is a mistake. You lose more body heat and energy.."
Yes, when I wrote kidding I meant kidding
I hope all goes well in your first camping trip
Hey Enrique
I'd suggest this is unsound advice. People can die from hypothermia at 50'F and even warmer temperatures.
I'd also reiterate the 'don't wear cotton' mantra, but I think 'cotton kills' is a bit over the top. It sounds like something Gary Larson would've had a ball with.
First, what was you lowest temperature you got?
Minus 40
What is more important, the tent or sleeping bag?
Your sleeping bag, by far.
What are the most important cautions and gear to make a night camp on winter comfortable with snow and lower temps?
Dry insulating clothing. Wool is awesome, and fleece can be great too. Down jackets rock. What's the most important caution? Depends entirely on the situation. bring 2 sleeping pads, one closed cell foam pad and a more comfortable thicker open cell pad, or, better yet, buy an Exped downmat. Whatever temps you expect, I'd go with a bag AT LEAST 15deg warmer (i.e., if you think minus 20deg is possible, bring a minus 40 bag).
On 2nd thoughts, here's my recommendations on 'most important'. DON'T GET COLD - the single most important thing in your gear and in your safety bag is P-R-E-V-E-N-T-I-O-N; remember, it's infinitely harder to warm up than it is to stay warm.
Layering means taking your clothes on and off and on and off, all day long. I spend most of my winter dressing and undressing, it seems, but it works.
In case of dramatic weather change what is the best thing to do?
There's no answer to this kind of question. It depends entirely on the situation. People are always looking for objective information and the outside is a subjective world.
And finally if someone had some odd and dangerous episode i also would like to know what you have done to resolve the situation.
I've had a lady on a trip get pretty cold and wet after I'd gone to retrieve her pack that was a mile or 2 back up the mountain. I left her and her husband and 2 other folks under a shelter. The temperature was around freezing, a wind blowing, and that nasty freezing chilly drizzle falling. 2 of the 4 people under the shelter were what I'd call 'experienced' outdoors people.
My last words were for her to sit tight in the sleeping bag, and one of the fellows to make her some hot tea/cocoa/water/whatever. To keep her warm dry clothes on and wait for me to come back.
I got back and she was sitting in a damp light shirt, shivering, holding her cup without drinking. Pretty much the only think they did from my instructions were to wait for me to get back.
I could tell she was OK, but way colder than I'd like for someone to be. Took off her damp top and put on all her dry layers and some of mine. Then sat her back in the sleeping bag, and watched her slowly sip 2 cups of tea. She slowly warmer up, and was fine. We had an hour or hike before we could camp, so we delayered a bit before heading off, and that hike warmed her up well. Once we got to camp, it was straight into the tent, warm clothes on while I put up the kitchen shelter, and made some soup. She was fine.
The issue could've easily been a bad one if I'd been a little longer getting back to the group. The situation reinforced to me that even experienced people make stupid mistakes. Her husband is a vet, and has WAY more medical training and expertise than I do, yet he was sitting beside her while she shivered. She'd gotten out of the bag and extra dry clothes because she said she was 'warm' while I was gone.
Floris' advice is sound - eat a lot.
Cheers
Carl
The strong wind and water are something to be avoided.
"First, what was you lowest temperature you got?"
I wrote -10C
-40C ? never...
The temperature of-10C is the danger, of course, but there are already clothes for which thermal -10C is not a big problem. Of course, without the right clothes 1C can be fatal.
However, although there are many risk factors you describe very well
Although I think will agree that water and strong wind are factors that we can more quickly cause hypothermia within minutes, so it is that clothing should be special.
In my comment just try to emphasize that if you find one near civilization (where one can get help quickly) and if temperatures are expected, ranging from 0C to -10C and if you have the right clothes, then and only thus will not be in such high risk, at least, compared with -40C and removed from civilization
Either way, you're right, in that we should not underestimate any temperature near or below 0C
I forget the temperature exactly, but it's something like 65 or even70 deg F at which the human body loses heat faster than it generates it, unless moving, etc. One does not have to be 'cold' to start to suffer the effects of hypothermia. Add to that something like an injury or even fatigue, and hypothermia is an enormously dangerous possibility at what we like to think of as mild temperatures.
People forget - we, as creatures, evolved in hot climates on the grasslands and savannahs of what is called Africa. We're not built to deal with cold weather. As an example, an arctic fox' metabolism doesn't change, even while the animal is stationary until temperatures get down to minus 40F. A musk ox down to minus 70F. Those are creatures adapted for cold temperatures. We do better in a temperature range of 80degF.
I don't like to see advice such as "there are already clothes for which thermal -10C is not a big problem."
Clothes don't save people.
Cheers
Carl
The heat can be measured with a thermometer
The cold, however, is a thermal sensation (perception)
"I do not like to see advice such as" there are already clothes for thermal-10C Which is not a big problem. "
is right, and there Thermal clothing for extreme temperatures of -60C
"Clothes do not save people."
He is also right in this. If a person is immersed in water at 5C for 10 minutes and then goes and puts on a thermal clothing, will remain at risk of hypothermia
One of the things that touched me see frequently, as people, even with experience, often use very good clothes, but still have their heads not well cover.
This scientifically proven that to bring the head not well cover is one of quickest ways to lose body heat.
At this point I have no way to convey the article that addresses this issue, but if you look on the internet, sure to find it.
In extremely cold temperatures is not a good idea to go without cover our head. . There is an irony in this because the cold is felt in the feet and hands more than elsewhere in the body. The tendency is to cover over our feet and hands, when the problem is that we're losing heat because the head is not well cover.
It is proven scientifically that while we losing body heat, the body reacts by sending most of the heat to the thorax (heart and lungs) and the head, even sacrificing the limbs (each time sending less heat to the extremities).
Any of us can do a little experiment. at temperatures close to 0C or less, and walk out with heads not well cover, and beginning to feel cold in the feet and hands, cover your head and notice the difference. Cover your face with a balaclava and maybe even going to feel heat.
Remember that the first thing you lose a mountaineer exposed to extremely low temperatures, are the toes and hands.
I can understand the problem
You are talking about living with a climate close to 0C with tropical clothing
I'm talking about someone who lives with close to-10C with appropriate clothing for winter
I think the clothes here makes the difference, do not you think?
The man has lived many years in cold winter thanks to the skins (clothing) and our days, science allows covering up with clothing lighter and with much better results.
It is a fact that we live in climates of-10C,
Hey Enrique
No - this is not correct. People do NOT biologically acclimate to cold weather. We DO however acclimate to warmer weather - a result of our evolving in hot temperatures.
You miss my point about 'clothes don't save lives' - simply wearing clothes rated down to minus 10deg, or minus 60 deg does NOT save lives, regardless of the temperature. Well-dressed people have died in much warmer temperatures - there are too many other factors that come into play. Dehydration, not eating well, fatigue, injury, etc, etc all can lead to people making poor decisions, getting into trouble, and all the clothes in the world won't stop that, nor 'rescue' anyone once they go into hypothermia.
Dress well, but good practice in your BEHAVIOR will be as important as anything else.
Cheers
Carl
I'm not saying that we acclimated, but we adapt:)
"Dress well, but good practice in your BEHAVIOR will be as important as anything else. "
I agree with you
The clothing is to maintain body heat, the rest depends on our behavior,
we are not talking about the same? heheh :)
I also write something about it in my previous lines
"One of the things that touched me see frequently, as people, even with experience, often use very good clothes, but still have their heads not well cover. "
-10C it's not the big problem, the big problem may be our behavior
Enrique Vizcarra
You've recieved a ton of reat advice, so I'll not repeat it. My personal low temp night was -25. My only comment is that my comfort when winter camping became much increased when I started hammock camping. I've slept on and under snaw, but the hammock is now my top choice! If you'll be in an area where a hammock could be strung, I'd urge its use. The secrets are: quality sleeping bag rated for lower temp than you can reasonably expect to experience; get in it DRY: and have a good wide and long insulating pad of of closed foam underneath you in the hammock. Rig a 12' x 12" fly diagonally above you with its free corners pegged to the ground to either side of you and you'll wake surprised at the great night's sleep you had!
Dave in South Dakota
The cold, however, is a thermal sensation (perception)
This is a somewhat misleading statement, so I'm going to put my physics hat on for a minute.
Heat is energy and is measured in calories. One (1) calorie is the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one (1) degree Celsius.
Therefore, temperature, as measured by a thermometer of some kind, provides to us information about the relative "hotness" or "coldness" of an object, not the amount of heat energy that is absorbed or released by the system.
--P
How can you explain this:
The thermometer 32F mark, however due to the wind the thermal sensation is of 20F
Two measurements are applied here, which is correct? of the thermometer or the thermal sensation? and why?
I have this link, I hope you find it usefull
https://www.northernoutfitters.com/p-43-9-piece-arctic-system.aspx
Ok
"Therefore, temperature, as measured by a thermometer of some kind, provides to us information about the relative "hotness" or "coldness" "
The heat can be measured
The cold does not
You're not going to find a physics book that explains how to measure the cold in the heat function
It is a misconception that the cold is a function measuring the heat
The heat loss is not equal to cold
If you are to 100C and drops to 90C Temperature Gauge you will not feel cold
The cold is a wind chill that deals only with the loss of body heat (below average 37C) and nothing else
The cold is body reaction to lost of body heat (body reacts consuming calories to warm up us), and we can feel cold even when the body heat keep at 37C.
At the same temperature people lose heat differently and therefore may feel more or less cold. (perception)
The point is that:
A-10C with the appropriate clothing, the body Temperature Gauge can be kept stable and therefore do not feel cold and can survive without problems.
Of course, our behavior can put us in danger, even when crossing an street in the city
Two measurements are applied here, which is correct? of the thermometer or the thermal sensation? and why?
Both are correct. However, the ambient air temperature, in this case 32F, is a direct measurement, while the wind chill is a calculated value based upon the ambient air temperature and wind speed.
I'd like to address your other remarks, as well, Enrique.
You quoted me sa saying, "Therefore, temperature, as measured by a thermometer of some kind, provides to us information about the relative "hotness" or "coldness" " .
Just to clairfy, here is my statement in toto: "Therefore, temperature, as measured by a thermometer of some kind, provides to us information about the relative "hotness" or "coldness" of an object, not the amount of heat energy that is absorbed or released by the system."
The "hotness" or "coldness" of the air, or an object is a sensation only. We say that an object, or the air, is "cold" relative to an object, or the air, whose temperature is greater than than that with which we are comparing it to. The converse is also true.
Heat can be measured.
True
The cold does not.
I never said we could measure 'cold'. I said we could measure relative 'hotness' or 'coldness' as a sensation, by using a thermometer.
You're not going to find a physics book that explains how to measure the cold in the heat function.
This is true, and I never said that was the case.
In strict physical terms, there is no such condition called "cold", there is only a lesser quantity of heat in the system. We call something "cold" when it's temperature is lower than some arbitrary threshold; our personal comfort zone, for example. To illustrate this, I would not feel 'cold' (a sensation) if the ambient air temperature dropped from 39 C to 29 C, but I would feel 'cold' if the temperature dropped from 25 C to 0 C.
"If you are to 100C and drops to 90C Temperature Gauge you will not feel cold
I know I wouldn't, since the temperatures in your statement are that of boiling water and one only slightly lower!
"The cold is a wind chill that deals only with the loss of body heat and nothing else "
There is no wind chill if the wind speed is zero, but there would still be heat lost from the body to the air because heat flows from an object with more heat to an object with less heat until thermal equilibrium is reached. Heat loss from the body to the air is convective in nature. That is why wind increases the rate of heat loss.
"At the same temperature people lose heat differently and therefore may feel more or less cold. (perception)
The point is that:
A-10C with the appropriate clothing, the body Temperature Gauge can be kept stable and therefore do not feel cold and can survive without problems.
Of course, our behavior can put us in danger, even when crossing an street in the city "
Agreed. I will add that -10C (14F) is well within the danger zone for most people. The effects of this temperature would be exacerbated by high altitude, relative humidity, and any wind.
--P
If I measure temperature with a wind 0kms, and then with 10kms, temperature is the same.
just to clarify this point a little more
The temperature measurement is related to physics
The wind chill has more to do with meteorology. And this measurement is used to warn of wind effects on us.
this measurement is not exact, it's more about average and does not works for dogs, wolfs, etc.
"There is no wind chill if the wind speed is zero, but there would still be heat lost from the body"
That's right, 0 wind chill it's the same that the temperature ambient.
"The effects of this temperature would be exacerbated by high altitude, relative humidity, and any wind. "
Yes, no doubts about it