Posted by Terry Sohl on December 10, 2007 at 11:26 PM
Jim, feel free to move to "Hot Topics" or somewhere else if need be, but...I have to vent.
For about the 5th time in about the last year and a half, while out birding and enjoying our wildlife in South Dakota, I've came across something that just sickened me. My blood has been boiling over the last 5 hours since I saw this. Fortunately I had my camera, so I could at least document it.
The long version is here, with photos.
http://sdakotabirds.com/idiot/animal_cruelty.htm
Short version...there's a little urban park outside of Sioux Falls that has open water all winter, and attracts hundreds of geese. It also attracts hunters, who evidently get some thrill hanging JUST across the road, and blasting away at these very tame birds as they come in to the water to roost for the night. I repeat...these are VERY tame birds.
Caught the guy in the photos in the link above, kicking, stomping, and hitting one of the geese that presumably had been wounded by his hunting buddies. It went well beyond just putting down a bird wounded by gunshot.
Given as much time as we all spend out in the field, I'm sure all of us have come across situations like this. There's the one side of me (AKA, my wife), who doesn't want me to speak out, especially given how strong of a hunting culture is found in the state, and some of the downright disturbing phone calls and anonymous letters I've gotten in the past for voicing my views in the local paper.
On the other hand...how can you NOT use your experience in the field to try and affect change in behavior such as this?
Terry, Stuff like this makes me, too, absolutely enraged and sick...so here are a few ideas for making people more aware of their behavior: For one, how about submitting the photo to your local newspaper in hopes that they'll do a story on this themselves? Secondly, this is despicable behavior - I doubt hunters with a conscience would do this, especially in front of a non-hunter type. Thirdly, isn't this something to turn in to local police or the USWF dept in the area as this is pretty psychotic behavior?
Maybe I'm overreacting to the photo, but I can't help it, this is EXACTLY why I take photos of wildlife. I want people to see the wildlife as something to respect and preserve.
Nancy
P.S. I just went to your website, saw the sequence of photos on this subject, and am sure I'm on the right track about you providing these photos to the local paper, police, USWF, FWS or whatever the heck it is in your area, and do it now.
Posted by Steve Foss on December 11, 2007 at 12:15 AM
He picked a stupid way to try to dispatch a wounded goose. Either he didn't know enough about goose physiology (ignorance) or he was being purposefully cruel (potentially criminal). I can't tell from the series of images which it might be. His stupid buddies laughing at him don't say anything about HIS intent.
While a clean shot and immediate kill are by far the best result if one is going to hunt, it's much better to try to put the wounded goose down for good than it would be to leave it alone and let it die slowly (potentially over the course of days).
Posted by Richard Wong on December 11, 2007 at 1:27 AM
my god dude, that is disturbing. if he has such an urge to demonstrate his muy thai kick then maybe he should step foot in the ring with Ernesto Hoost as punishment.
My God, Terry, this is such dispicable behaviour!! I don't know if I could have controlled myself and kick this guy the way he kicks this goose. I know that you cannot be judge and jury, but this is so inhuman (I don't know if in this case this is the right word, because somtimes I think it is very human to be this cruel) I think Nancy is right to say to give your pictures and your story to the appropriate authorities. Maybe with a petition of animal lovers who agree with you that somthing has to be done to prevent this kind of behaviour to happen again. I live in Holland and fortunately hunting is not very big here. I know that if I had seen something like this and reported it, something would be done very quickly. I hope that in your state somthing will be done quickly too.
Good luck.
Betty-Lou
Posted by Jim Erhardt on December 11, 2007 at 6:23 AM
I have nothing against legitimate hunting (I onced hunted with a firearm myself) and the Canada Goose has become an unpopular nuisance in many parts of the country due to its overwhelming numbers, but this is downright disrespectful and cruel. I am glad you documented this case of animal cruelty and will use the photos to help prosecute those responsible and educate the rest.
I hunt, but being cruel to animals is a totally different ballgame. You can hunt without being torturous. This is totally uncalled for!
Posted by Tim Behle on December 11, 2007 at 8:32 AM
I didn't look at a series, only the one image, along with your comments. I don't think that your picture shows intentional cruelty. I think you merely captured an uneducated young man, acting in the heat of the moment. He wanted to put down the wounded goose, but didn't know how to do it quickly and humanly, more than likely because he had never been taught.
I think that it is a shame that the other people who witnessed this event, just sat back and allowed it to go on, with out stepping up to the rescue of both the boy and the goose.
The image to me doesn't show intentional cruelty, it shows the dangers of a lack of education.
Take the picture to the local Hunter Education Instructors, maybe it will show them the need to add a class on how to properly deal with wounded game.
Posted by Terry Sohl on December 11, 2007 at 9:00 AM
I have written the local paper, and will be contacting GF&P today...
Tim...if you'd been there, you'd have seen that it was beyond just an "uneducated young man". This went on for over 10 minutes. If he was trying to just do it quickly, why not bring one of the guns his buddies had?
If he was trying to be humane, why kick and hit it? I'm not a goose hunter, and never have been, but even I think I could dispatch the bird pretty quickly.
Posted by Toni Lankerd on December 11, 2007 at 9:36 AM
Absolutely disgusting!
Terry, I hope contacting the authorities and the newspaper will help. These guys are nothing but cruel and immature idiots!
Posted by Jim DeWitt on December 11, 2007 at 1:30 PM
Terry -
You can probably get action on this, but it will take effort on your part. District Attorneys have limited resources, and if a crime doesn't involve human blood or semen, it falls into a lower priority. Maybe it's different in South Dakota, but I doubt it. To get official action, you'll have to get sufficient public outrage to make it impossible for the D.A. to ignore the crime.
In addition to the newspaper, notify your local SPCA, and most importantly, your local Ducks Unlimited. D.U. is pretty responsive, and demands for prosecution from other bird hunters are much harder for a D.A. to ignore. And remember U.S. Fish & Wildlife has jurisdiction as well.
Good luck. Keep us posted.
Posted by Terry Sohl on December 11, 2007 at 3:15 PM
Today, I have sent info and photos to the local paper, have talked to the conservation officer from SD Game Fish & Parks, and have info sent to U.S. Fish & Wildlife.
Different in South Dakota? Oh no. Given the hunting culture here, you probably have to have DNA samples as well as photos for proof.
Terry, I'm so glad you took action; it's so easy for most of us to see something and do nothing, and you DID something about it. Sure sorry you had to see this whole thing, though, in the first place.
Nancy
Posted by Steve Foss on December 11, 2007 at 5:06 PM
A county attorney may have nothing to do with it. Could just as easily fall under the jurisdiction of South Dakota's game and fish department or equivalent or, if it was on federal land, the USFWS.
Posted by James Fillip on December 11, 2007 at 7:44 PM
I don't hunt. But I am not against it. This is not hunting, not by any stretch of the imagination. This is with out a doubt animal cruelty. With the popularity of hunting in your state, I would like to think the hunting clubs or organizations would be just as upset by this. Responsible hunters usually will go to great lengths to protect there image, and they don't like to be lumped in with idiots like this.
What kind of person goes hunting, for anything, anywhere, and does not carry a knife? Still not a pretty picture, but you have a dead bird in a matter of a couple seconds rather then 10+ minutes.
Posted by dan elster on December 11, 2007 at 10:30 PM
The long version is unbelievably disgusting.
Glad you were able to contain yourself. I'm not sure if I would have been able to and probably would have gotten shot for it. Do you think a flood of letters from NPN'ers would do any good?
I hope I can sleep tonight after seeing this Terry.
Posted by Stan Rose on December 12, 2007 at 5:27 AM
Terry, in my 'former' life, i actually had to defend a few idiots like this (as a public defender). I can tell you that if a story like this hits the press, action will be taken, and it most definitely should be. Id be willing to bet a large sum of money that this jerk behaves in a similar way with other people (an assault conviction or domestic abuse is a good bet).
Posted by Carl Donohue on December 12, 2007 at 4:26 PM
Hey Terry
I'd have thought Fish and Game have jurisdiction here, not FWS, correct? I don't really know though.
Cruelty like this is inexcusable - unless you happen to play in the NFL.
Perhaps you could call the fashion police while you're at it .. that jacket, I mean, Good Lord! :D
Good luck.
Cheers
Carl
Posted by Jim DeWitt on December 12, 2007 at 5:37 PM
USF&WS has jurisdiction of migratory birds. Whether they'll do anything is a separate question. Which is why I urge contact to hunting outfits like Ducks Unlimited, who can bring very effective pressure...
Posted by Garth McElroy on December 12, 2007 at 5:45 PM
Yea, that's not good at all. As an avid waterfowl hunter this burns me up because it gives the whole hunting community a bad name. All it takes is a couple idiots to have a major impact on the perception of hunters. Good job capturing this guy in the act and I hope some action will be taken.
Posted by Terry Sohl on December 12, 2007 at 11:16 PM
Thank you for all your very helpful suggestions. I never thought to contact a group like Ducks Unlimited. I have now done so, along with the state and federal authorities as mentioned above.
Also just finished a letter to the editor for the paper. They do often publish longer letters, so I hope this is taken. Note...in the past, I've written a letter to the editor, regarding a hunting issue (seeing kids popping off migratory songbirds at a local wetland). In response, my wife got two very nasty phone calls (anonymous of course) from "hunters", and I got two letters, one with flight schedules and a note saying "Leave if you don't like our "culture" (my quotes) in South Dakota", and another containing a bunch of rifle ads, with some disturbing comments written on them.
With that in mind, I tried to tread lightly, and make sure to point out that I respect the vast majority of hunters. Here's what I submitted:
"After leaving the east-side Menard's this week, I headed east on the gravel road just north of the old salvage yard, north of Arrowhead Park. As I went down the hill, I saw a young man in the field to the north, chasing an animal. When I got close enough, I saw it was a wounded Canada Goose he was chasing. It was then that he caught up with it...and started kicking it, over, and over, and over again.
In my outrage I opened my window and yelled. He stopped, and turned his back to me. He then bent down to catch his breath, and the still alive goose started to struggle away.
Again, the young man chased it, and then kicked and stomped at the bird. Again it stopped moving for a bit, and then let out some feeble honks and tried to get away.
More kicking and stomping, until finally, he grabbed the bird by the neck and swung it around in circles in a slow arc.
To make a long story short, I watched this atrocity repeated for over 10 minutes, with more kicking, stomping, and swinging the bird around. At the top of the hill were what I assume were his two "buddies", with guns in hand. I assume the bird had been wounded, and this guy was sent after it. However, he had NO gun, no weapon of any kind. If indeed he was trying to dispatch a wounded bird, why not take a weapon? Why drag this out for such a long period of time? I find it hard to believe he was truly so inept, so inexperienced a hunter that this long gruesome drama had to be played out over such a long time.
I'm a bird watcher, photographer, and nature lover. However, I have no problem with the vast majority of responsible hunters in South Dakota. I applaud the efforts of groups like Duck Unlimited in preserving the resource, and know full well that habitat restoration and preservation efforts which directly benefit my birding and photography are strongly supported by the vast majority of hunters.
However, in the past year, I have now witnessed this incredibly gruesome act, I have seen poisoned hunting dogs neatly hidden under some pine trees near Pierre, and have witnessed young boys dropped off at a local wetland, only to start popping off protected migratory songbirds.
Hunters of South Dakota...I ask for your assistance in reporting and stopping such behavior, acts which inexorably will lead to the diminution of your sport in the eyes of non-hunters like myself. I have friends and colleagues with a strong love of hunting, and know of their strong personal character and spirit for their sport. I respect their passion and belief in what they do. All I ask is that anyone, hunter or not, take the responsibility to report actions such as what I witnessed this week."
Posted by Steve Foss on December 13, 2007 at 12:22 AM
Carl, I had to laugh. Jackets like these (mostly high-performance snowmobile, ATV or motorcycle attire), are de rigueur across much of the northern Midwest for a certain type of interest group.
Terry, as a longtime newspaper journalist in the Dakotas and Minnesota, I can say your letter strikes just the right note. Which newspaper did you submit it to? If you submitted to a small weekly, you should also send it, along with the images, to the larger dailies all through the state. I see it happened in Sioux Falls, but if you sent it there, you should also send it to the other dailies. Dailies in general (and I mean IN GENERAL), are less worried about printing letters that may seem to go against the prevailing citizenry than weeklies. Not to mention a daily paper is more likely to take up the issue as a news feature than a weekly. And if the issue doesn't get taken up by the Sioux Falls paper, by sending it to others you may get attention for the issue partly because those other papers see the S.F. paper ignored it and they can steal a march on the competition!
Be warned. If you submit this info to truly responsible dailies, you may find yourself on the receiving end of a phone call seeking an interview. If I was working the news desk and got a letter/e-mail with images like these, my mind would be screaming NEWS!
From your end, times like that call for careful thinking about how you want to represent your position in print and, eventually, probably on camera for the TV news.
Posted by Carl Donohue on December 13, 2007 at 2:09 PM
Hey Jim,
Of course, our migratory bird laws are F&WS, thanks .. I should've known that! :)
This is why I don't like hunting at all as a "sport". Because then shit like this happens. If hunting would not be an accepted activity for "ordinary" people and if authorities would control and fine everyone that shoots wildlife, this would be much less likely to happen.
Hunting as a means to get some nice meat on the table, in a controlled way by people that are educated to do so and have license and permission from government etc is ok, it even is a necessary means to control a population.
But I absolutely hate the unfair battle between a rifle and an unarmed animal.period.
Yes, I know, my view on this is certainly different from the view on this topic in the states, but a provoking image like this just leaves me no other way than to speak my mind.
Please excuse, I am european, and we have a different attitude toward guns, and shooting as a hobby.
Posted by David Cowell on December 16, 2007 at 2:26 PM
This is disgusting
Posted by Terry Sohl on December 16, 2007 at 3:06 PM
I received an e-mail from, by chance, somebody who works where I do. That person knew the boys...and I suspect one was his son.
He really laid into me, calling me "cowardly" for posting this on the web and calling Game Fish & Parks. His excuse for the boys?
They didn't want to "damage the meat" by shooting it again to finish it off. GOD FORBID they "damage the meat". No, instead, let's make sure the meat is pristine, and even tenderized, by beating the hell out of the bird.
His e-mail, more than any other response, made me realize just how inhumane these folks are. For him, it was all about filling the freezer with meat, with no thought for the well-being of the resource. He said those boys have taken 50 geese in that spot, and for some weird reason he went into their weekend activity of processing 20+ pounds of goose jerkey.
50 geese at this spot...you'd think they'd have figured out how to humanely dispatch a wounded bird, rather than pull crap like this.
Posted by Terry Sohl on December 16, 2007 at 9:43 PM
Another update...
According to this adult who made the comment about not wanting to "damage the meat", hence the method to kill it...S.D. Game Fish & Parks talked to the boys and parents, and supposedly found the boys did nothing wrong, that they were just finishing off an injured bird.
That's S.D. hunting culture for you.
Posted by Steve Foss on December 16, 2007 at 10:04 PM
I have been a hunter most of my life.
I have "finished off" animals before, though I can count the number of times I've had to do that on one hand. A hunter respecting the bird/animal starts with being a competent shot and never taking a chancy shot. Since I only hunt animals for meat, I also care about not wasting the meat. In my world, we call the type of responsible finishing-off shot a head shot. That way it's over instantly. Works just as well on a goose as any other bird/animal.
Terry, you might ask Papa (if you are even continuing the conversation with him), why he didn't train his son to put a wounded animal out of its misery immediately and permanently with a meat-saving head shot. I realize even thinking about or discussing such things is distasteful, even repugnant, to many on these boards. So-called hunters who fool around like that boy did and are contemptuous of the life they are taking need swift and punitive education, as do the older hunters who were supposed to mentor them.
People of this age in almost all states must pass hunter safety certification courses to obtain a license. While hunter ethics are taught as part of most such courses, it doesn't take the place of an older, responsible, levelheaded hunter sharing his/her respect for the animals and implanting that respect in the next generation. Simply because all of us have the power and some the desire or need to kill birds and animals doesn't mean we should do so willy-nilly or casually.
Peer pressure probably bears some responsibility for the situation here. Things that teen-agers know are wrong and would never do in front of adults are often done with other youngsters egging them on. Mob behavior at a young age, is what it is.
It takes a lot of character (at any age) to resist peer pressure even when you know what they're pushing for is wrong, and that type of character is almost only ever passed on through plenty of direct contact between parent/mentor and child. That makes it no different than many other of life's most important lessons.
Posted by Terry Sohl on December 16, 2007 at 11:36 PM
Well said Steve, on all counts.
Totally agree with your method for killing the bird. Yes, I'm sure some folks aren't exactly thrilled with that, but that's a lot more humane than what this guy was doing.
If only every hunter were responsible, there would be a lot less folks who are against the sport.
Posted by Steve Foss on December 17, 2007 at 10:53 AM
Thanks, Terry. My current feelings on hunting represent a gradual evolution in my thinking over 30 years. As that relates to what these boys did, it's quite possible (even likely, I hope) that as they mature and look back on that day they will view it with some shame and use it as a learning experience.
While I've always considered myself a responsible hunter, even as a teen, it's only in the last decade or so I've developed an actual reverence for the animals I pursue and the culture of the fair-chase hunt. Many who don't understand hunting (it's very difficult even for a writer immersed in the love of hunting to explain) can't imagine how someone with reverence for a creature can hunt, kill and eat it, but there it is. I mean no disrespect toward non- or anti-hunters, either. I hope those boys move in a more responsible direction over time.
Terry, if any of the stuff you've sent the papers is posted on their Web sites, could you post a link? It may be something I'd like to respond to in a letter to the editor.
Posted by Kim Kaiser on December 17, 2007 at 12:45 PM
no real difference to the photo someone hung of a coyote on a fence post here a year or so ago, i dont remember who it was.....there is always going to be some segment of the population that has no respect for either the privelege to hunt or to have a respect for the creatures they hunt. or how they "classify" animals in there respect to livestocks, ranching, predation choices, etc... Some, even want to shoot coyotes because they cut the wild turkey populations and thus, harder to get a tom,,and then, on these same forums and others, its ok to sacrifice a mouse to an owl to get a good photoraph or a ggo or nho flyin in. Is a mouse less important than the goose,,, Its just the way that it is. All the gun education, hunter education, animal awareness recognition in the world will not stop it..
Posted by Mel Ladewig on December 17, 2007 at 6:50 PM
I hunt, but being cruel to animals is a totally different ballgame. You can hunt without being torturous. This is totally uncalled for!
I have to agree Kyle. There is no need to be unkind to animals in hunting or in life in general.
Posted by David A Bliss on December 17, 2007 at 8:32 PM
I am not a hunter, and have no desire to kill anything (that is what a slaughter house is for ). I know many hunters, some have a deep respect for nature, some simply like to kill things.
Someone I would consider a good friend and kindred spirit is also a hunter. He deeply respects nature, and shoots more animals with a camera than with a gun. He once told me the quickest and most humane way to finish off a wounded bird (without filling it so full of buckshot as to be inedible) was to grab it by the neck, and swing it quickly over your head. The weight of the bird will snap its neck. If you know what you are doing (and care), it is a very quick and simple way to put the bird out of its suffering.
It seems to me these boys are not the ones with a deep respect for nature. He (the one in the picture) doesn't respect an animal's life enough to learn how to kill it quickly, and seems to take enjoyment out of its suffering. From the pictures posted, it looks as if he knows the right way to do it, but doesn't know how to apply it, and, unfortunately, doesn't care enough about the animal's suffering to learn it.
Posted by Kent Staubus on December 18, 2007 at 11:01 AM
Here's another angle. I'm assuming this was Arrowhead park, in the old quarry east of Walmart? Here's the history on it. It is legal to hide in roadside ditches and shoot at birds that fly over, with some restrictions. However, the ditches around that spot are marked no hunting. The reason is partly because the area is becomming built up and partly because of the reason the park is there. These giant Canada geese were congregating in a downtown park in large numbers and causing problems, especially by the airport (planes were hitting them!) So, this location was opened up to lure geese from downtown and increase airport safety. This is the other reason there really is no hunting here. I'm not sure about the river just to the east--I've hunted ducks there myself from my boat.
The kid is wearing an orange jacket, so they were obviously not out goose hunting. (The jacket came from Walmart and is not a "high performance" version, BTW.) It's likely that this was just a car load of kids getting out from Washington High School, spotting a goose within range, and taking a shot. These big geese are hard to bring down unless you have the proper loads. He likely didn't shoot a second time because he was actually in a no hunting zone and didn't want to make additional noise. The kid was obviously inept and not an experienced goose hunter. I could have dispatched the goose in seconds. The law here is you can retrieve downed birds from private land but you can't take your gun in to do it. That might be why he didn't simply shoot it, although I'm still thinking he was trying to not attract attention. (LOL--wearing an orange jacket and chasing around!)
I doubt anything will happen to the kid. If he had been caught by a deputy or whatever, he would likely have received about a $100 fine, I'm guessing. While I would like to see the goose population lowered around here, there are better ways to do that. What concerns me the most was the kid shooting in that moderately populated area. I drive down that road at least six times a month myself and don't want some yahoos shooting around its blind curves. At any rate, the kids involved had no sense.
Kent in SD
Posted by Terry Sohl on December 18, 2007 at 1:40 PM
Kent,
Yes, that's correct. He was road hunting, and was trying to finish off the wounded bird when it fell and then ran out onto private land.
Like I said earlier...a "friend" of these kids sent me an e-mail saying they've killed over 50 geese right at that spot. If that's the case, then I can't excuse them for inexperience. They should have known better.
What really concerns me is how these kids will turn out in the long term, especially given the support cast they seem to have around them. I've heard from 2 of the kids and also a few adults who know them. One comment from the adult...these fine kids "are the future of South Dakota hunting". Ugh. Pretty dim future. What was disgusting is how everyone who is associated with the kids refuses to admit there was something wrong done here.
My son is only 4, but I hope to god that as he grows up, I have the strength to discipline him when he does something wrong, rather than doing the much easier alternative of shooting the messenger.
Posted by Kent Staubus on December 18, 2007 at 11:09 PM
Terry--
Another thought. Did you actually see a gun or hear a shot? This guy just doesn't seem to be dressed for hunting. In addition to the orange jacket, he isn't dressed at all warmly. No way I'd sit out in the snow wearing bluejeans--they get wet. I have a suspicion he saw a crippled goose (which someone else had shot) and decided to chase it down. Still pretty stupid to go chasing after a goose if this is on the park property or near there though.
Kent in SD
Posted by Terry Sohl on December 19, 2007 at 12:09 AM
Kent,
I do think it was shot, as two of his friends were standing at the top of the hill, with shotguns. Someone told me that where they were is a pretty popular spot, even though there's no land access, and it's just shooting from the road.
I got another e-mail from yet another "friend" of these boys. His comment mimicked those of all the other people associated with these boys:
"Why would any hunter in there right mind shoot any bird point blank that would wreck the meat of the bird. I have shot birds all over the state and i would never shot a bird point blank because I love the taste of goose meat."
He's the third person who knows these kids who has commented on not wanting to "wreck" or "damage" the meat of the bird. Because they were road hunting, and the goose ran onto private property, I understand they weren't allowed to bring the gun to finish it off. But for kids who have supposedly killed 50+ geese at this site, this undoubtedly wasn't the first injured bird they'd had to track and kill on private land. And yet still, the best method they can come up with for killing it is kicking and stomping on it.
Posted by David Bostedo on December 19, 2007 at 1:41 PM
Terry - The more I hear about this, the more the "preserving the meat" comments sound like someone making excuses. (How much wild goose gets eaten around there anyway?) Like what they really want to say is "it's only a bird, and no big deal, so I'm going to claim it's a meat issue so I don't sound callous".
If anyone is actually willing to discuss this, rather than just argue, I'd be curious to know how many people in your area think that stomping an injured goose isn't a big deal - regardless of intended use. For instance, ask them what they'd think of this incident if there was no chance that the goose was going to be eaten. I wonder how many people would fess up to still thinking it wasn't really a problem.
Now, I probably don't think it's as big a problem as some of you - at least not the abuse of the goose, not directly. What bugs me more is what it says about the kids doing it - and how they feel towards any other living things, including people.
Posted by Terry Sohl on December 20, 2007 at 1:22 AM
And the fun keeps coming...
My 4-year old son has Type-1 diabetes, diagnosed right after his 1st birthday, and is dependent upon an insulin pump. Near the bottom of my home page, I have a photo of a billboard with my son on it, used last year for the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation (JDRF) walk.
Latest tactic of what is either a parent, or very close friend of one of the "boys"? I got an e-mail, saying they had been in contact with the director of JDRF, stating I'm using the JDRF relationship to further "my political agenda"!!!
Never mind that there's not a shred of overlap between my page showing this atrocity, and the page explaining our son's situation and our relationship with JDRF!!! THIS is what they've resorted to...trying to break up our relationship with the group that's trying to cure our son!!!
I give up. Threatening and profanity-strewn e-mails and phone calls, going after THIS aspect of our lives...how the HECK do you combat this mentality!?!?! I've pulled the story and photos from my website. I can't believe JDRF would ever put any stock in this crazy, but the one thing in life I can not risk is damaging our relationship with this group.
Posted by Steve Foss on December 20, 2007 at 10:58 AM
Terry, I'm sorry to hear that. I try to keep a positive outlook on the nature of humanity, but it's hard to think we're anything but doomed when we see this kind of evil intent.
The best of luck to your daughter!
Posted by Kim Kaiser on December 24, 2007 at 1:31 AM
i have always thought there is no freedom of speech,,and you just got muscled out of yours,,
Posted by Bill Chambers on December 24, 2007 at 7:13 PM
Terry, as you know very well, it seems you are I are seldom are the same side when it comes to politics, etc., but I'm 100% with you on this one. I've been a hunter my entire life, and these morons are not hunters at all; they are simply lunatics with weapons who have no understanding of the responsibilities that come with the privilege. The argument that they didn't want to "damage the meat" is completely baseless. I would dare say the meat was damaged far more by the stress induced by being chased and kicked by the moron in quesion due to the fact the birds adrenaline was surely pumping hard and fast and the muscles were tense, all of which make the meat less palatable. Dispatching a wounded animal with a quick, well placed shot is not only the most humane way, but also results in meat which is better to eat.
As for as the threatening emails, calls, etc. I would suggest going to JDRF and explain the story to them, ask for their "silent" support, in the form of not responding to the emails, etc., and then I would call the local newspaper, TV news, etc. and make them aware of the emails, etc., and fight these idiots for all you're worth! Morons such as these is what gives hunting and legimate, responsible hunters a black eye.
As for your co-worker, please forward my reply to him. He is an idiot, who seems to be proudly raising more idiots! I see people like this all too frequently who wear ignorance like it's a badge of honor. If he would like to contact me, my email address is enchantedlight@mchsi.com. I'd like very much to tell him to wha ti think of his hunting ethics.
Don't be intimidated by these clowns, and don't give in to their tactics.
Good luck, and Merry Christmas my friend!
Posted by Leann Greene on January 5, 2008 at 10:43 PM
My mind keeps going back to someone else's point about if not finishing off the goose with a gun shot then why not a knife? Do you keep the head on to keep from ruining the meat? Of course not.Many poultry have been decapitated so the marathon torture that went on is just unexcuseable. I know you are feeling the wrath locally but I would bet that there are people who have in their minds decided that is not how to act. They may not be vocal like the people pissed off so you may never know that you have influenced someone to change their behavior. You did the right thing though.
I have neighbors who think of me as a trouble maker for having them reported to wildlife officers for repeatedly shooting any hawks that perch in sight of their unpenned chickens. Of course it doesn't occur to them that the hawks could be more interested in the rat& rabbit population that are attracted to the chicken feed and no one can convince THEM otherwise but something had to be said.
So sad to hear how your family was affected.
Dressed like that , i drought very seriously that he is even with any hunting buddies .
I hunt waterfowl and big game and have never ever thought of acting like that . That guy is just a plain moron and needs to be locked up .
Posted by Larry Fischer on November 25, 2008 at 8:42 AM
OK. At least this guy did NOT let the wounded bird limp off and die a lingering death.
Yes, there are novices at hunting just like there are novices at photography. Hunting has ethics, too, and the are learned. In short, we don't know the whole story from the photo.
Nature is not much kinder.
It is tooth and claw. How about the belly being ripped open and the predator starting to eat before the animal is dead? Folks, be careful we don't make of nature more than what it is--beautiful and gruesome at the same time.
I would have shot the wounded goose in the head but the alternative (out of ammo?) is to try to pin the goose (not an easy task) and wring its neck.
If the guy subdued the goose and used all the edible carcass for a meal, I won't judge him by one picture out of context, ie. it does not show why, when and where.
the fisch
Posted by Terry Sohl on December 8, 2008 at 10:25 AM
Larry,
C'mon. This is NOT "nature". This is an idiot who is either cruel, or incredibly stupid with regard to how to dispatch a wounded goose.
The first is simply disgusting. If you're going out hunting, if you're entrusted with a deadly weapon...then even the 2nd option is inexcusable.
The ends justifies the means, by your last sentence? That's even more disgusting. Certainly exemplifies that way human beings treat our planet though.
Posted by Jerry Greer on December 11, 2008 at 7:47 PM
Hey Larry, are you lost and on the wrong website?
Posted by Steve Foss on December 11, 2008 at 8:34 PM
A wide variety of opinion among people is natural and welcome.
Just for the sake of argument, there is a school of thought that believes humans are as much a part of nature as any other aspect of nature, that we are not sundered from nature. Therefore, anything humans do is in their nature to do, and is thus as natural as the warble of the warbler and the dam building of a beaver. So to hold ourselves above nature, to believe we are the center of the universe, is arrogance.
Just for the sake of argument, of course.
Posted by Terry Sohl on December 18, 2008 at 9:36 AM
Steve,
I actually agree with part of that argument...that we are just as much of a part of nature as anything else. We're animals, guided by the same instincts that drive many animals. Aggression, will to survive, etc. guide most of our actions.
But...we have an intelligence and understanding far beyond any other creature. For the good of the species, we should know the value of the environment, should know to treat it with more respect. We should be able to rise above those instincts and rely on our (supposed) intelligence and understanding more.
Sounds like the original Captain Kirk, talking about how the human race has "overcome" such raw basic instincts to become a civil society. And for the most part I think that's true...until you come across an idiot like this.
Posted by Steve Foss on December 18, 2008 at 9:43 AM
Terry, I remember that Star Trek episode!
As for having "an intelligence and understanding far beyond any other creature," I don't feel a certainty that it's true. It's the assumption we make as humans, certainly. But we understand too little about our companion species on this planet to honestly defend that statement, I believe.
I think, based on what else you said in that paragraph, you're sympathetic to my position, and I agree wholeheartedly with your statement: "For the good of the species, we should know the value of the environment, should know to treat it with more respect. We should be able to rise above those instincts and rely on our (supposed) intelligence and understanding more."
Discussion
50 repliesFor about the 5th time in about the last year and a half, while out birding and enjoying our wildlife in South Dakota, I've came across something that just sickened me. My blood has been boiling over the last 5 hours since I saw this. Fortunately I had my camera, so I could at least document it.
The long version is here, with photos.
http://sdakotabirds.com/idiot/animal_cruelty.htm
Short version...there's a little urban park outside of Sioux Falls that has open water all winter, and attracts hundreds of geese. It also attracts hunters, who evidently get some thrill hanging JUST across the road, and blasting away at these very tame birds as they come in to the water to roost for the night. I repeat...these are VERY tame birds.
Caught the guy in the photos in the link above, kicking, stomping, and hitting one of the geese that presumably had been wounded by his hunting buddies. It went well beyond just putting down a bird wounded by gunshot.
Given as much time as we all spend out in the field, I'm sure all of us have come across situations like this. There's the one side of me (AKA, my wife), who doesn't want me to speak out, especially given how strong of a hunting culture is found in the state, and some of the downright disturbing phone calls and anonymous letters I've gotten in the past for voicing my views in the local paper.
On the other hand...how can you NOT use your experience in the field to try and affect change in behavior such as this?
ARGH!!!!
Maybe I'm overreacting to the photo, but I can't help it, this is EXACTLY why I take photos of wildlife. I want people to see the wildlife as something to respect and preserve.
Nancy
P.S. I just went to your website, saw the sequence of photos on this subject, and am sure I'm on the right track about you providing these photos to the local paper, police, USWF, FWS or whatever the heck it is in your area, and do it now.
While a clean shot and immediate kill are by far the best result if one is going to hunt, it's much better to try to put the wounded goose down for good than it would be to leave it alone and let it die slowly (potentially over the course of days).
Good luck.
Betty-Lou
I think that it is a shame that the other people who witnessed this event, just sat back and allowed it to go on, with out stepping up to the rescue of both the boy and the goose.
The image to me doesn't show intentional cruelty, it shows the dangers of a lack of education.
Take the picture to the local Hunter Education Instructors, maybe it will show them the need to add a class on how to properly deal with wounded game.
Tim...if you'd been there, you'd have seen that it was beyond just an "uneducated young man". This went on for over 10 minutes. If he was trying to just do it quickly, why not bring one of the guns his buddies had?
If he was trying to be humane, why kick and hit it? I'm not a goose hunter, and never have been, but even I think I could dispatch the bird pretty quickly.
Terry, I hope contacting the authorities and the newspaper will help. These guys are nothing but cruel and immature idiots!
You can probably get action on this, but it will take effort on your part. District Attorneys have limited resources, and if a crime doesn't involve human blood or semen, it falls into a lower priority. Maybe it's different in South Dakota, but I doubt it. To get official action, you'll have to get sufficient public outrage to make it impossible for the D.A. to ignore the crime.
In addition to the newspaper, notify your local SPCA, and most importantly, your local Ducks Unlimited. D.U. is pretty responsive, and demands for prosecution from other bird hunters are much harder for a D.A. to ignore. And remember U.S. Fish & Wildlife has jurisdiction as well.
Good luck. Keep us posted.
Different in South Dakota? Oh no. Given the hunting culture here, you probably have to have DNA samples as well as photos for proof.
Nancy
What kind of person goes hunting, for anything, anywhere, and does not carry a knife? Still not a pretty picture, but you have a dead bird in a matter of a couple seconds rather then 10+ minutes.
Glad you were able to contain yourself. I'm not sure if I would have been able to and probably would have gotten shot for it. Do you think a flood of letters from NPN'ers would do any good?
I hope I can sleep tonight after seeing this Terry.
I'd have thought Fish and Game have jurisdiction here, not FWS, correct? I don't really know though.
Cruelty like this is inexcusable - unless you happen to play in the NFL.
Perhaps you could call the fashion police while you're at it .. that jacket, I mean, Good Lord! :D
Good luck.
Cheers
Carl
Also just finished a letter to the editor for the paper. They do often publish longer letters, so I hope this is taken. Note...in the past, I've written a letter to the editor, regarding a hunting issue (seeing kids popping off migratory songbirds at a local wetland). In response, my wife got two very nasty phone calls (anonymous of course) from "hunters", and I got two letters, one with flight schedules and a note saying "Leave if you don't like our "culture" (my quotes) in South Dakota", and another containing a bunch of rifle ads, with some disturbing comments written on them.
With that in mind, I tried to tread lightly, and make sure to point out that I respect the vast majority of hunters. Here's what I submitted:
"After leaving the east-side Menard's this week, I headed east on the gravel road just north of the old salvage yard, north of Arrowhead Park. As I went down the hill, I saw a young man in the field to the north, chasing an animal. When I got close enough, I saw it was a wounded Canada Goose he was chasing. It was then that he caught up with it...and started kicking it, over, and over, and over again.
In my outrage I opened my window and yelled. He stopped, and turned his back to me. He then bent down to catch his breath, and the still alive goose started to struggle away.
Again, the young man chased it, and then kicked and stomped at the bird. Again it stopped moving for a bit, and then let out some feeble honks and tried to get away.
More kicking and stomping, until finally, he grabbed the bird by the neck and swung it around in circles in a slow arc.
To make a long story short, I watched this atrocity repeated for over 10 minutes, with more kicking, stomping, and swinging the bird around. At the top of the hill were what I assume were his two "buddies", with guns in hand. I assume the bird had been wounded, and this guy was sent after it. However, he had NO gun, no weapon of any kind. If indeed he was trying to dispatch a wounded bird, why not take a weapon? Why drag this out for such a long period of time? I find it hard to believe he was truly so inept, so inexperienced a hunter that this long gruesome drama had to be played out over such a long time.
I'm a bird watcher, photographer, and nature lover. However, I have no problem with the vast majority of responsible hunters in South Dakota. I applaud the efforts of groups like Duck Unlimited in preserving the resource, and know full well that habitat restoration and preservation efforts which directly benefit my birding and photography are strongly supported by the vast majority of hunters.
However, in the past year, I have now witnessed this incredibly gruesome act, I have seen poisoned hunting dogs neatly hidden under some pine trees near Pierre, and have witnessed young boys dropped off at a local wetland, only to start popping off protected migratory songbirds.
Hunters of South Dakota...I ask for your assistance in reporting and stopping such behavior, acts which inexorably will lead to the diminution of your sport in the eyes of non-hunters like myself. I have friends and colleagues with a strong love of hunting, and know of their strong personal character and spirit for their sport. I respect their passion and belief in what they do. All I ask is that anyone, hunter or not, take the responsibility to report actions such as what I witnessed this week."
Terry, as a longtime newspaper journalist in the Dakotas and Minnesota, I can say your letter strikes just the right note. Which newspaper did you submit it to? If you submitted to a small weekly, you should also send it, along with the images, to the larger dailies all through the state. I see it happened in Sioux Falls, but if you sent it there, you should also send it to the other dailies. Dailies in general (and I mean IN GENERAL), are less worried about printing letters that may seem to go against the prevailing citizenry than weeklies. Not to mention a daily paper is more likely to take up the issue as a news feature than a weekly. And if the issue doesn't get taken up by the Sioux Falls paper, by sending it to others you may get attention for the issue partly because those other papers see the S.F. paper ignored it and they can steal a march on the competition!
Be warned. If you submit this info to truly responsible dailies, you may find yourself on the receiving end of a phone call seeking an interview. If I was working the news desk and got a letter/e-mail with images like these, my mind would be screaming NEWS!
From your end, times like that call for careful thinking about how you want to represent your position in print and, eventually, probably on camera for the TV news.
Of course, our migratory bird laws are F&WS, thanks .. I should've known that! :)
Cheers
Carl
Hunting as a means to get some nice meat on the table, in a controlled way by people that are educated to do so and have license and permission from government etc is ok, it even is a necessary means to control a population.
But I absolutely hate the unfair battle between a rifle and an unarmed animal.period.
Yes, I know, my view on this is certainly different from the view on this topic in the states, but a provoking image like this just leaves me no other way than to speak my mind.
Please excuse, I am european, and we have a different attitude toward guns, and shooting as a hobby.
He really laid into me, calling me "cowardly" for posting this on the web and calling Game Fish & Parks. His excuse for the boys?
They didn't want to "damage the meat" by shooting it again to finish it off. GOD FORBID they "damage the meat". No, instead, let's make sure the meat is pristine, and even tenderized, by beating the hell out of the bird.
His e-mail, more than any other response, made me realize just how inhumane these folks are. For him, it was all about filling the freezer with meat, with no thought for the well-being of the resource. He said those boys have taken 50 geese in that spot, and for some weird reason he went into their weekend activity of processing 20+ pounds of goose jerkey.
50 geese at this spot...you'd think they'd have figured out how to humanely dispatch a wounded bird, rather than pull crap like this.
According to this adult who made the comment about not wanting to "damage the meat", hence the method to kill it...S.D. Game Fish & Parks talked to the boys and parents, and supposedly found the boys did nothing wrong, that they were just finishing off an injured bird.
That's S.D. hunting culture for you.
I have "finished off" animals before, though I can count the number of times I've had to do that on one hand. A hunter respecting the bird/animal starts with being a competent shot and never taking a chancy shot. Since I only hunt animals for meat, I also care about not wasting the meat. In my world, we call the type of responsible finishing-off shot a head shot. That way it's over instantly. Works just as well on a goose as any other bird/animal.
Terry, you might ask Papa (if you are even continuing the conversation with him), why he didn't train his son to put a wounded animal out of its misery immediately and permanently with a meat-saving head shot. I realize even thinking about or discussing such things is distasteful, even repugnant, to many on these boards. So-called hunters who fool around like that boy did and are contemptuous of the life they are taking need swift and punitive education, as do the older hunters who were supposed to mentor them.
People of this age in almost all states must pass hunter safety certification courses to obtain a license. While hunter ethics are taught as part of most such courses, it doesn't take the place of an older, responsible, levelheaded hunter sharing his/her respect for the animals and implanting that respect in the next generation. Simply because all of us have the power and some the desire or need to kill birds and animals doesn't mean we should do so willy-nilly or casually.
Peer pressure probably bears some responsibility for the situation here. Things that teen-agers know are wrong and would never do in front of adults are often done with other youngsters egging them on. Mob behavior at a young age, is what it is.
It takes a lot of character (at any age) to resist peer pressure even when you know what they're pushing for is wrong, and that type of character is almost only ever passed on through plenty of direct contact between parent/mentor and child. That makes it no different than many other of life's most important lessons.
Totally agree with your method for killing the bird. Yes, I'm sure some folks aren't exactly thrilled with that, but that's a lot more humane than what this guy was doing.
If only every hunter were responsible, there would be a lot less folks who are against the sport.
While I've always considered myself a responsible hunter, even as a teen, it's only in the last decade or so I've developed an actual reverence for the animals I pursue and the culture of the fair-chase hunt. Many who don't understand hunting (it's very difficult even for a writer immersed in the love of hunting to explain) can't imagine how someone with reverence for a creature can hunt, kill and eat it, but there it is. I mean no disrespect toward non- or anti-hunters, either. I hope those boys move in a more responsible direction over time.
Terry, if any of the stuff you've sent the papers is posted on their Web sites, could you post a link? It may be something I'd like to respond to in a letter to the editor.
I have to agree Kyle. There is no need to be unkind to animals in hunting or in life in general.
Someone I would consider a good friend and kindred spirit is also a hunter. He deeply respects nature, and shoots more animals with a camera than with a gun. He once told me the quickest and most humane way to finish off a wounded bird (without filling it so full of buckshot as to be inedible) was to grab it by the neck, and swing it quickly over your head. The weight of the bird will snap its neck. If you know what you are doing (and care), it is a very quick and simple way to put the bird out of its suffering.
It seems to me these boys are not the ones with a deep respect for nature. He (the one in the picture) doesn't respect an animal's life enough to learn how to kill it quickly, and seems to take enjoyment out of its suffering. From the pictures posted, it looks as if he knows the right way to do it, but doesn't know how to apply it, and, unfortunately, doesn't care enough about the animal's suffering to learn it.
The kid is wearing an orange jacket, so they were obviously not out goose hunting. (The jacket came from Walmart and is not a "high performance" version, BTW.) It's likely that this was just a car load of kids getting out from Washington High School, spotting a goose within range, and taking a shot. These big geese are hard to bring down unless you have the proper loads. He likely didn't shoot a second time because he was actually in a no hunting zone and didn't want to make additional noise. The kid was obviously inept and not an experienced goose hunter. I could have dispatched the goose in seconds. The law here is you can retrieve downed birds from private land but you can't take your gun in to do it. That might be why he didn't simply shoot it, although I'm still thinking he was trying to not attract attention. (LOL--wearing an orange jacket and chasing around!)
I doubt anything will happen to the kid. If he had been caught by a deputy or whatever, he would likely have received about a $100 fine, I'm guessing. While I would like to see the goose population lowered around here, there are better ways to do that. What concerns me the most was the kid shooting in that moderately populated area. I drive down that road at least six times a month myself and don't want some yahoos shooting around its blind curves. At any rate, the kids involved had no sense.
Kent in SD
Yes, that's correct. He was road hunting, and was trying to finish off the wounded bird when it fell and then ran out onto private land.
Like I said earlier...a "friend" of these kids sent me an e-mail saying they've killed over 50 geese right at that spot. If that's the case, then I can't excuse them for inexperience. They should have known better.
What really concerns me is how these kids will turn out in the long term, especially given the support cast they seem to have around them. I've heard from 2 of the kids and also a few adults who know them. One comment from the adult...these fine kids "are the future of South Dakota hunting". Ugh. Pretty dim future. What was disgusting is how everyone who is associated with the kids refuses to admit there was something wrong done here.
My son is only 4, but I hope to god that as he grows up, I have the strength to discipline him when he does something wrong, rather than doing the much easier alternative of shooting the messenger.
Another thought. Did you actually see a gun or hear a shot? This guy just doesn't seem to be dressed for hunting. In addition to the orange jacket, he isn't dressed at all warmly. No way I'd sit out in the snow wearing bluejeans--they get wet. I have a suspicion he saw a crippled goose (which someone else had shot) and decided to chase it down. Still pretty stupid to go chasing after a goose if this is on the park property or near there though.
Kent in SD
I do think it was shot, as two of his friends were standing at the top of the hill, with shotguns. Someone told me that where they were is a pretty popular spot, even though there's no land access, and it's just shooting from the road.
I got another e-mail from yet another "friend" of these boys. His comment mimicked those of all the other people associated with these boys:
"Why would any hunter in there right mind shoot any bird point blank that would wreck the meat of the bird. I have shot birds all over the state and i would never shot a bird point blank because I love the taste of goose meat."
He's the third person who knows these kids who has commented on not wanting to "wreck" or "damage" the meat of the bird. Because they were road hunting, and the goose ran onto private property, I understand they weren't allowed to bring the gun to finish it off. But for kids who have supposedly killed 50+ geese at this site, this undoubtedly wasn't the first injured bird they'd had to track and kill on private land. And yet still, the best method they can come up with for killing it is kicking and stomping on it.
If anyone is actually willing to discuss this, rather than just argue, I'd be curious to know how many people in your area think that stomping an injured goose isn't a big deal - regardless of intended use. For instance, ask them what they'd think of this incident if there was no chance that the goose was going to be eaten. I wonder how many people would fess up to still thinking it wasn't really a problem.
Now, I probably don't think it's as big a problem as some of you - at least not the abuse of the goose, not directly. What bugs me more is what it says about the kids doing it - and how they feel towards any other living things, including people.
My 4-year old son has Type-1 diabetes, diagnosed right after his 1st birthday, and is dependent upon an insulin pump. Near the bottom of my home page, I have a photo of a billboard with my son on it, used last year for the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation (JDRF) walk.
Latest tactic of what is either a parent, or very close friend of one of the "boys"? I got an e-mail, saying they had been in contact with the director of JDRF, stating I'm using the JDRF relationship to further "my political agenda"!!!
Never mind that there's not a shred of overlap between my page showing this atrocity, and the page explaining our son's situation and our relationship with JDRF!!! THIS is what they've resorted to...trying to break up our relationship with the group that's trying to cure our son!!!
I give up. Threatening and profanity-strewn e-mails and phone calls, going after THIS aspect of our lives...how the HECK do you combat this mentality!?!?! I've pulled the story and photos from my website. I can't believe JDRF would ever put any stock in this crazy, but the one thing in life I can not risk is damaging our relationship with this group.
The best of luck to your daughter!
As for as the threatening emails, calls, etc. I would suggest going to JDRF and explain the story to them, ask for their "silent" support, in the form of not responding to the emails, etc., and then I would call the local newspaper, TV news, etc. and make them aware of the emails, etc., and fight these idiots for all you're worth! Morons such as these is what gives hunting and legimate, responsible hunters a black eye.
As for your co-worker, please forward my reply to him. He is an idiot, who seems to be proudly raising more idiots! I see people like this all too frequently who wear ignorance like it's a badge of honor. If he would like to contact me, my email address is enchantedlight@mchsi.com. I'd like very much to tell him to wha ti think of his hunting ethics.
Don't be intimidated by these clowns, and don't give in to their tactics.
Good luck, and Merry Christmas my friend!
I have neighbors who think of me as a trouble maker for having them reported to wildlife officers for repeatedly shooting any hawks that perch in sight of their unpenned chickens. Of course it doesn't occur to them that the hawks could be more interested in the rat& rabbit population that are attracted to the chicken feed and no one can convince THEM otherwise but something had to be said.
So sad to hear how your family was affected.
I hunt waterfowl and big game and have never ever thought of acting like that . That guy is just a plain moron and needs to be locked up .
Yes, there are novices at hunting just like there are novices at photography. Hunting has ethics, too, and the are learned. In short, we don't know the whole story from the photo.
Nature is not much kinder.
It is tooth and claw. How about the belly being ripped open and the predator starting to eat before the animal is dead? Folks, be careful we don't make of nature more than what it is--beautiful and gruesome at the same time.
I would have shot the wounded goose in the head but the alternative (out of ammo?) is to try to pin the goose (not an easy task) and wring its neck.
If the guy subdued the goose and used all the edible carcass for a meal, I won't judge him by one picture out of context, ie. it does not show why, when and where.
the fisch
C'mon. This is NOT "nature". This is an idiot who is either cruel, or incredibly stupid with regard to how to dispatch a wounded goose.
The first is simply disgusting. If you're going out hunting, if you're entrusted with a deadly weapon...then even the 2nd option is inexcusable.
The ends justifies the means, by your last sentence? That's even more disgusting. Certainly exemplifies that way human beings treat our planet though.
Just for the sake of argument, there is a school of thought that believes humans are as much a part of nature as any other aspect of nature, that we are not sundered from nature. Therefore, anything humans do is in their nature to do, and is thus as natural as the warble of the warbler and the dam building of a beaver. So to hold ourselves above nature, to believe we are the center of the universe, is arrogance.
Just for the sake of argument, of course.
I actually agree with part of that argument...that we are just as much of a part of nature as anything else. We're animals, guided by the same instincts that drive many animals. Aggression, will to survive, etc. guide most of our actions.
But...we have an intelligence and understanding far beyond any other creature. For the good of the species, we should know the value of the environment, should know to treat it with more respect. We should be able to rise above those instincts and rely on our (supposed) intelligence and understanding more.
Sounds like the original Captain Kirk, talking about how the human race has "overcome" such raw basic instincts to become a civil society. And for the most part I think that's true...until you come across an idiot like this.
As for having "an intelligence and understanding far beyond any other creature," I don't feel a certainty that it's true. It's the assumption we make as humans, certainly. But we understand too little about our companion species on this planet to honestly defend that statement, I believe.
I think, based on what else you said in that paragraph, you're sympathetic to my position, and I agree wholeheartedly with your statement: "For the good of the species, we should know the value of the environment, should know to treat it with more respect. We should be able to rise above those instincts and rely on our (supposed) intelligence and understanding more."
This sure has been an interesting discussion.