A sad article in many respects. Sad for the news it conveys, and sad for the entrenched attitudes it also shows in those involved in the case. In many ways it seems to have been written provocatively to try and stir the kind of comments that it gets in it's feedback section rather than to try and engender any serious or reasoned discussion of the issues that exist .
While it is deplorable to lay poison and kill any creature with it I also find it a "sad day" when the Scotsman's reporting falls to the level of the Sun or Daily Record.
Bring back the even-handed style of editor in the mould of Magnus Linklater.
To see what I mean by the reporting style, try reading an alternative report of the same Eagle poisoning case here
Posted by Paul Gibbs on August 15, 2007 at 8:25 AM
I saw this image in the "METRO" yesterday, and i felt sad. This is simply an outrage. There is a simple resolve... People who do this get life imprisonment.
Hi Nick yes a more balanced view not so sensationalised I do agree with John that the editors have shown some good and not so good editorial management the Scotsman's article makes out that at least to me that all gamekeepers are evil people that go around poisoning everything they can, which obviously isn't true it's like anything a small minority who really tarnish the reputation of a lot of good people.
I was hoping to get a debate on how to help to possibly prevent this type of thing without any name-calling or slandering of people, Personally I do find it very difficult to understand why they would do such a thing when the top predator in the world namely the human race has the capability to do so much good, you can't blame them for eating the free food we put out for them IE all the grouse that are reared and released along with the pheasants and partridges.
Phillip.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on August 15, 2007 at 12:48 PM
From what I have read so far, not enough facts and too much finger-pointing make it difficult to say anything, other than it's deplorable to use wildlife as a pawn in political battles. I think that is something we can all agree on.
Posted by Richard Wong on August 15, 2007 at 2:22 PM
FYI Phillip, grouse are not reared then released; pheasants are on most shoots as are red-leg partridges, but not english greys.
I have yet to meet another 'keeper who would like to see Eagles killed, although I know of many hill sheep farmers who lose plenty of lambs to Golden Eagles and even the majority of them would would never advocate killing them or even classing them as a pest.
Most 'keepers use their dogs every day on the ground that they keep birds on, either for counting purposes or for shepherding birds back to home woods from boundary areas......do folks honestly think that any sensible gamekeeper would lay poison where his/her dogs are going to come into contact with it, i.e in the vicinity of his/her birds?? Maybe some folks are under the illusion that our dogs are trained to know poison bait and to avoid it, wrong!! Any I know will have a sniff and a lick at any dead thing, some even try to bring back some really smelly old carcasses (probably to see the reaction of the handler)
I don't know of any who would put their livelihood, their dogs and wildlife in general at risk in such an indiscriminate way. There really is no excuse for such action and any attempt by anyone to justify it should fall on deaf ears.
I doubt the Grouse have much to fear from the eagles... I'm sure they'd prefer a Yorkie (terrier) or two instead .
IM(NS)HO the only way to combat this sort of thing is via education - so people really know the facts, and not some load of bull or propaganda that is expounded by either side. The Northern Kites project tried to do this by working closely with schools and communities to make their re-intro programme a success. Despite that, a year or so back they also had a case of Carbofuran poisoning with one of their re-introduced kites in the Northumberland area . As the Borders region is next to Northumberland - I hope both Wildlife Officers are talking and swapping notes!
Unfortunately, the education of people is a long, slow, process. Pete Cairns has had a project called 'Tooth & Claw' running for a little while now - it's aim is to gather the opinions of people regarding predators and their potential re-introduction into Britain. Worth checking out.
Posted by Andy Astbury on August 16, 2007 at 10:49 AM
Nick
I doubt the Grouse have much to fear from the eagles... I'm sure they'd prefer a Yorkie (terrier) or two instead
Now that all depends - the first Goldie I ever saw was at thirty feet altitiude smashing into a fleeing covey on the side of a track about 4 miles north of Kinloch station
I certainly am of the mind that this is either the work of a sick predjudiced loner or it's a put-up - has a full autopsy been done on the carcass - I know the quick toxicology revealed carbofuran, but was that really the bird or the bait??
Whilst most estates I know of which are breaking the law with regard to diurnal and most nocturnal raptors, they do not seem to have the same approach to eagles - these being seen as a bit of a money-spinner - and, no estate keeper would leave the bait unchecked and the evidence lying there - hence my thoughts on the perpetrator of this wicked act.
The way the law stands at the moment on paper looks okay(ish) but it's implementation is somewhat woeful. In any area of the UK, but especially in Scotland, where sporting shooting features heavily in the local economy and perhaps a hundred or more small incomes are dependent on a successful season, prejudice towards any raptor will, for some part, be equal to that reserved for foxes,mustelids,corvids,cats - and anything else that is pecieved to be a threat to sporting stock.
Until a time arrives where either the law is modified to meet some form of compromise between raptor preservation and sporting stock protection; or the laws are toughened to encompass prosectution of the estate as well as the individual and penalties are comensurate (life in prison for an individual would mean nothing, they can always be replaced - a 100,000 pound fine to the estate would be one MAJOR deterent).
But sadly I can see neither of the two extremes or anything in between being discussed let alone implemented anytime soon, so sadly, taking a real-world view, I feel that this something we are going to have to live with.
It is a fact of life, mankind thinks he's the apex lifeform in any eco-system from the Scottish highlands to the rainforests of Borneo - or should that be the Oil Palm plantations - and until nature turns round and bites him in the backside then that's the way it'll stay
Discussion
15 repliesPhillip.
http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1280262007
Bring back the even-handed style of editor in the mould of Magnus Linklater.
I was hoping to get a debate on how to help to possibly prevent this type of thing without any name-calling or slandering of people, Personally I do find it very difficult to understand why they would do such a thing when the top predator in the world namely the human race has the capability to do so much good, you can't blame them for eating the free food we put out for them IE all the grouse that are reared and released along with the pheasants and partridges.
Phillip.
I have yet to meet another 'keeper who would like to see Eagles killed, although I know of many hill sheep farmers who lose plenty of lambs to Golden Eagles and even the majority of them would would never advocate killing them or even classing them as a pest.
Most 'keepers use their dogs every day on the ground that they keep birds on, either for counting purposes or for shepherding birds back to home woods from boundary areas......do folks honestly think that any sensible gamekeeper would lay poison where his/her dogs are going to come into contact with it, i.e in the vicinity of his/her birds?? Maybe some folks are under the illusion that our dogs are trained to know poison bait and to avoid it, wrong!! Any I know will have a sniff and a lick at any dead thing, some even try to bring back some really smelly old carcasses (probably to see the reaction of the handler)
I don't know of any who would put their livelihood, their dogs and wildlife in general at risk in such an indiscriminate way. There really is no excuse for such action and any attempt by anyone to justify it should fall on deaf ears.
I doubt the Grouse have much to fear from the eagles... I'm sure they'd prefer a Yorkie (terrier) or two instead
IM(NS)HO the only way to combat this sort of thing is via education - so people really know the facts, and not some load of bull or propaganda that is expounded by either side. The Northern Kites project tried to do this by working closely with schools and communities to make their re-intro programme a success. Despite that, a year or so back they also had a case of Carbofuran poisoning with one of their re-introduced kites in the Northumberland area
Unfortunately, the education of people is a long, slow, process. Pete Cairns has had a project called 'Tooth & Claw' running for a little while now - it's aim is to gather the opinions of people regarding predators and their potential re-introduction into Britain. Worth checking out.
http://www.fws.gov/news/NewsReleases/showNews.cfm?newsId=BE935795-974F-4768-DE4A89664B1CFC29
Now that all depends - the first Goldie I ever saw was at thirty feet altitiude smashing into a fleeing covey on the side of a track about 4 miles north of Kinloch station
I certainly am of the mind that this is either the work of a sick predjudiced loner or it's a put-up - has a full autopsy been done on the carcass - I know the quick toxicology revealed carbofuran, but was that really the bird or the bait??
Whilst most estates I know of which are breaking the law with regard to diurnal and most nocturnal raptors, they do not seem to have the same approach to eagles - these being seen as a bit of a money-spinner - and, no estate keeper would leave the bait unchecked and the evidence lying there - hence my thoughts on the perpetrator of this wicked act.
The way the law stands at the moment on paper looks okay(ish) but it's implementation is somewhat woeful. In any area of the UK, but especially in Scotland, where sporting shooting features heavily in the local economy and perhaps a hundred or more small incomes are dependent on a successful season, prejudice towards any raptor will, for some part, be equal to that reserved for foxes,mustelids,corvids,cats - and anything else that is pecieved to be a threat to sporting stock.
Until a time arrives where either the law is modified to meet some form of compromise between raptor preservation and sporting stock protection; or the laws are toughened to encompass prosectution of the estate as well as the individual and penalties are comensurate (life in prison for an individual would mean nothing, they can always be replaced - a 100,000 pound fine to the estate would be one MAJOR deterent).
But sadly I can see neither of the two extremes or anything in between being discussed let alone implemented anytime soon, so sadly, taking a real-world view, I feel that this something we are going to have to live with.
It is a fact of life, mankind thinks he's the apex lifeform in any eco-system from the Scottish highlands to the rainforests of Borneo - or should that be the Oil Palm plantations - and until nature turns round and bites him in the backside then that's the way it'll stay
Red kite Poisoning