Posted by dan elster on January 3, 2007 at 4:49 PM
A few months ago I had a show at a local coop gallery. On the last day of the show, another gallery owner in town purchased one of my images for $350. I've now come to find out that it's hanging in her gallery with a price tag of 1800 dollars. There was no discussion about this prior to her purchase. She is having a large show in March and April and is using my image as part of her promotional materials. I'm not sure if any of this wrong or not, but I have a funny feeling about it. Another local photographer agreed with me that it's not very good practice to not talk with me about her plans, but added that I probably should not mess with her. She is a big shot in the gallery association in this art driven town. I'd hate to be blacklisted as a difficult to deal with artist to other gallery owners in the area.
She is very eccentric, almost bizarre. Any thoughts?
Posted by Dan Borzynski on January 3, 2007 at 5:04 PM
Interesting...
The purchase and repricing certainly is odd, but I don't see a major problem with that. I don't think that it is much different than buying to resell on EBay. But it is odd.
Now using the image in her promotional materials. That sounds like a copyright issue. I hate to send to you to another website, especially given the events that led to its creation, but http://www.naturescapes.net/ has a couple of knowledgeable lawyers who regularly read the marketing forum.
One more thing. I have no problem with a gallery owner using my images to promote BOTH the gallery and my work. I've even provided jpegs in a couple of cases. But in this case, it sounds like she is using it just to promote her gallery. This is a bit of a grey area for me, which is why I am sending you to the above website.
Posted by Paul Grecian on January 3, 2007 at 5:09 PM
I don't see anything wrong with this either. The gallery owner paid your price and there certainly weren't any stipulations about reselling it. Frankly, if I were you, I'd be watching that gallery owner carefully. If they can sell your work at that price you're in good shape. I'd be paying them a quick visit.
Also, I don't see a coyright issue here either. DOn't galleries have the right to illustrate what they are selling?
Paul
Posted by Dan Borzynski on January 3, 2007 at 5:19 PM
Paul, from what I can recall in promotional materials, the artist is usually given credit for the work (image by Dan Elster, or something like that). If the gallery is doing that, I am guessing they are okay, but this is just a guess.
I'd really like to get a definitive answer here, if anyone knows for certain, simply because I don't know for certain.
I have no problem with the resale. If anything, it does good things for you and your future pricing/sales. That's what art sales are all about- Consider all the prints Ansel Adams sold from the trunk of his car for $25 each. Yeah, I wish I could have been standing in that line!
As for the promo, that's a real plus for you too. Even if your name was not on the promo materials, potential clients will see it when they come to the gallery.
That's all business sense, rather than legal opinion.
In your shoes I'd approach the gallery owner and express sincere thanks for her purchase and your excitement that she chose to highlight your work. If she responds in kind, it's time to propose a solo show or at least hanging more of your work...... At $1800 a pop, of course!
If you don't want to play in that ball game, pass along her name so someone else can step up to the plate.
Posted by Ron Niebrugge on January 3, 2007 at 6:04 PM
That is an interesting story. Sounds like you are under pricing your images.
Of course she can sell any property she buys from you for any amount she wants whether it is a camera, car or or photo. Many people use art as an investment. Where it sounds like she is crossing the line is using your image in promotional materials. Owning a print or painting doesn't give you any additional stock usage rights. Now typically a photographer is fine with the additional promotion, but that may not be the case here - only you can decide if the battle is worth it.
Posted by John W. Wall on January 3, 2007 at 8:39 PM
I mentioned this to an artist friend who echoed much of what people have said, but added by way of what steps you should take next: Go to the opening in March -- with plenty of business cards!
I don't really consider it unethical either. If anything it's a great compliment. If she thinks she can sell your work for that much more, I would approach her about representation.
Guy
Posted by Steve Foss on January 3, 2007 at 9:25 PM
Dan, congratulations. I see only positives here for you. You sold a print at the price you asked, and you're in a sense getting a free market assessment. If someone buys your print for $1,800 from this gallery, that tells you something that you didn't have to pay to find out.
Posted by dan elster on January 3, 2007 at 9:45 PM
Thanks for all the feedback. When this all first came out, I just didn't know what to make of it. My wife was livid! I think you guys are confirming what I already knew, that this is a good thing.
I'm not sure where I will go from here as far as pricing my work. I'm thinking about talking to her about a future show, but like I said in the origninal post, she's a bit nuts.
Posted by Steve Foss on January 3, 2007 at 10:27 PM
Dan, don't look a gift lunatic in the mouth.
The arts world is full of eccentrics, and is in fact noted for that. She may just be crazy like a fox. If we only associate ourselves professionally with people we understand, we eliminate markets. We don't have to like all our clients, we just have to satisfy them.
Posted by Ed Dubois on January 3, 2007 at 11:15 PM
Go for it Dan! If this lady can actually sell your images for that kind of $$$ be sure you're around with a fistful of business cards and a can-do attitude. As Steve said the arts world is full of eccentrics and not all are cash strapped. Consider your "low" initial selling price as part of your initiation into this world and make the most of it. Value like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Hope this turns into something really lucrative for you
I agree with Ron: if she is reproducing your image without having requested permission, that is a violation of copyright law. It would be a different story if she represented you, as this is obviously common practice.
I would then agree with John Wall and others. I would not approach her about a copyright violation, but I would definitely be at the opening with business cards in tow, and I would definitely be speaking with her about possible representation. She may just prefer to continue buying and reselling you work as she has already done. She'll clear a lot more profit on this sale than if she had been splitting the full $1800 with you!
Posted by Mike Moats on January 4, 2007 at 3:04 PM
Hey Dan,
I know you have no control over the price this gallery has set to sell at, but be very cafefull in selling any future works to this gallery pricing your images in this high price range, its is a very small market willing to paid that much. When you go to sell this image again in the future at another gallery or art show you will have to maintain that high price or it could be viewed as the value of your work has droped, or you could end up with a unhappy customer that has paid the 1800.00 and now see's your work selling for less. Its only my opinion, but I would tread carefully in the area of high pricing. I hope it all works out well for you.
Posted by Pat Warfield on January 4, 2007 at 5:20 PM
Dan, buying and selling your print is not the issue. If the print sells for $1800, that will improve your credibility. But reproducing your work without permission is illegal. The copyright belongs to you, the creator. No one has the right to reproduce your creation in any fashion without your consent. It is the same for other art forms - painting, sculptor, graphics, etc. Some people don't respect photography as original art or photographers as artists. In the 1970's copyright laws were rewritten stating that copyrights of original works belong to the creator even without registration. If the gallery is prestigious as you say, they know that also. So, like many 'pros' they are gambling on artists not wanting to make a fuss. Contact the gallery as a professional, thank her for her interest in your work, state that if she wishes to represent your work, you will be pleased to provide her with promotional digital files with your bio in the future - as you don't wish to allow 3rd generation reproductions or manipulation of your work. If she wants full possession of the photograph for a gallery image, you could license the rights for a fee. Just define what the rights will be - of course insist that your name remain associated with the image.
Posted by Pat Warfield on January 4, 2007 at 5:54 PM
Dan, buying and selling your print is not the issue. If the print sells for $1800, that will improve your credibility. But reproducing your work without permission is illegal. The copyright belongs to you, the creator. No one has the right to reproduce your creation in any fashion without your consent. It is the same for other art forms - painting, sculptor, graphics, etc. Some people don't respect photography as original art or photographers as artists. In the 1970's copyright laws were rewritten stating that copyrights of original works belong to the creator even without registration. If the gallery is prestigious as you say, they know that also. So, like many 'pros' they are gambling on artists not wanting to make a fuss. Contact the gallery as a professional, thank her for her interest in your work, state that if she wishes to represent your work, you will be pleased to provide her with promotional digital files with your bio in the future - as you don't wish to allow 3rd generation reproductions or manipulation of your work. If she wants full possession of the photograph for a gallery image, you could license the rights for a fee. Just define what the rights will be - of course insist that your name remain associated with the image.
Posted by Pat Warfield on January 4, 2007 at 6:32 PM
Dan, buying and selling your print is not the issue. If the print sells for $1800, that will improve your credibility. But reproducing your work without permission is illegal. The copyright belongs to you, the creator. No one has the right to reproduce your creation in any fashion without your consent. It is the same for other art forms - painting, sculptor, graphics, etc. Some people don't respect photography as original art or photographers as artists. In the 1970's copyright laws were rewritten stating that copyrights of original works belong to the creator even without registration. If the gallery is prestigious as you say, they know that also. So, like many 'pros' they are gambling on artists not wanting to make a fuss. Contact the gallery as a professional, thank her for her interest in your work, state that if she wishes to represent your work, you will be pleased to provide her with promotional digital files with your bio in the future - as you don't wish to allow 3rd generation reproductions or manipulation of your work. If she wants full possession of the photograph for a gallery image, you could license the rights for a fee. Just define what the rights will be - of course insist that your name remain associated with the image.
Dan, better yet, could I purchase some of your prints and sell to this person?!?
Tim!
Posted by Scott Elliot on January 4, 2007 at 10:26 PM
Rather than be upset about this I would visit the other gallery owner and see how many other prints they want to buy. As long as they give you credit, let them advertise as much as they want.
I have made one observation while browsing through artists' websites and the websites of Galleries. From the ones I viewed, without exception, the Galleries charge far more than what the artist charges for his work. These findings, of course, are by no means conclusive.
My question is would someone be willing to buy your work for 1800 dollars? She may be using her influence in the world of Galleries to make a sale. And if word gets out that you, the photographer, is selling the same work for only 350 dollars who would buy it for the higher amount?
I thought Galleries represent the work of artists and they would get a commission for selling it. Or do they buy the work and mark up the price to whatever they want?
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
Posted by John Zinn on January 8, 2007 at 11:11 AM
Will, you are describing a consignment type of gallery. Generally, those galleries don't put any cash up front for the art and thus get a lower commission. The artist only gets paid if it sells. Most galleries out right buy the art usually at a 50% discount and the artist gets paid whether or not the gallery every sells it.
Dan, I have to seriously wonder if you are undervaluing your work with matted 20x30 Limited Edition prints priced at $225. While the gallery price seems ridiculously high, you may want to consider increasing your prices. If a gallery gets too greedy and prices the work too high, you may get some direct request from non-eclectic art buyers doing price comparison or looking for other work. If someone sees a very low price on your website, then they may infer the work is of lesser quality and may lose interest. Then both you and the gallery lose.
Dan, another question I have is how is your work presented in her gallery? Did she buy just the print from you? Galleries are known for their framing and frames can cost as much or more than the work itself. So I am curious how your print looks hanging in her gallery. The image itself is no doubt beautiful but presentation can be everything.
We offer framing options through out photo studio, and the prices are startling to most clients even if we are taking negligible markups. Often we have clients return to us however after visiting either of the local frame shops to find similar prices there. Probably because our selection is better geared to photos, but that's not the point. The bigger point is that as image size goes up, by the time you add matts and frames you can easily double to price. Figure in a 50% or more markup on the original $350 photo price cited by Dan, and the price tag may not be all that far out of whack.
Moral of the story: Get hooked up with one of the matt and frame supply houses, buy set of corners, and offer the option to your clients.
Posted by dan elster on January 8, 2007 at 4:32 PM
So many responses! Thanks to everyone who took the time.
A couple of comments.
I'm always questioning my prices. I'd like to charge more, but I have to keep in mind what the client is willing to pay. I feel like 350 is probably too low, but 1800 is way too high. I do lots of outdoor shows and 350 for a 20x30 is a nice sale. I do a gallery and 350 is too low(gallery commision,30-40 %).
As far as this gallery purchasing my work. I've never heard of a gallery buying something up front like this before. It's almost always been on "commision" up till now. That's why I was bewildered to begin with.
Hank said:Moral of the story: Get hooked up with one of the matt and frame supply houses, buy set of corners, and offer the option to your clients.
Right on Hank. When I first started doing fine art photography, I couldn't come close to charging 350 for a framed 24x36 w/ 20x30 print. After shoping around the last couple of years, I've found how to do everything cheaper(maintaining quality of course). This is a business like any other.
Thanks again for all of the comments! Dan
Posted by Mike Moats on January 8, 2007 at 8:45 PM
Hey Dan, I use to sell through galleries but found way more money to be made in the art show circuit. My best show is in Ann Arbor and draws a half a million customers. If you put all the gallleries in my whole state together they wouldn't see that many people in a year. The art shows provide much greater exposure, and way more potential for sales. The galleries may be able to sell your work at a higher price but the extra money is just lost to the gallery, and the sales are much fewer. Good luck, hope you do well.
Posted by bob swanson on January 13, 2007 at 9:54 AM
All the above. Just remember the Golden Goose story. I assume that you were happy to sell your image for what you got. Art galleries have their own clients list. Question whether you'd be happy to continue selling images around that same price. I would. Don't deny the gallery their mark up. I'd approach them about future sales at the same pricing that you sold to the gallery. I wouldn't compete with them or badger them about raising your prices. Ask them what they'd suggest. couldn't hurt. BS
Posted by Josh Anderson on January 15, 2007 at 11:37 PM
Dan, just out of curiosity how large do you print with the 10D? I noticed you said you made prints 20 X 30 inches. How is the resolution in those images?
Posted by David Senesac on January 19, 2007 at 10:17 PM
If you also have an internet website presence, I would guess the gallery owner will not tend to do anything more than provide your artist name. In other words she is certainly not going to give them your website address if you are pricing there lower. And in fact if you show up to discuss the matter with her, I'd guess in the least it wouldl make her uncomfortable. If she makes a sale without your interference, that may stoke her interest in buying another same print. Gallery owners usually have connections to an upscale clientel base one is not likely to be able to exhibit to thus I would look at the situation as a plus. I'd love to have such an invisible sales force haha. And as some have hinted, long term it could generate business on that image allowing you to raise its price. Of course gallery owners tend to demand artists hanging work not undercut gallery prices on their web sites. And that becomes an issue with less well known photographers on the art fair circuit since optimal prices tend to be lower. ...David
I'd print up some of your best work - including this shot - and go to her showing. Take a bunch of business cards, Put the prints on easels outside her door. Put a big sign up saying "Featured artist - discount prices direct from the photographer!" and then charge half what she is asking to those who walk thru the door.
Seriously, I see all this as a compliment. The art galleries in Ashland -as in many places - are very high-priced. But I'd also suggest that you raise your prices!
I'm uncertain about her using your work in her promotional materials, without your express written consent, and I'd also suggest you get a formal response from an atty here. Please let us know, as this is an issue that we all could have to deal with (hopefully!! )
Discussion
31 repliesShe is very eccentric, almost bizarre. Any thoughts?
The purchase and repricing certainly is odd, but I don't see a major problem with that. I don't think that it is much different than buying to resell on EBay. But it is odd.
Now using the image in her promotional materials. That sounds like a copyright issue. I hate to send to you to another website, especially given the events that led to its creation, but http://www.naturescapes.net/ has a couple of knowledgeable lawyers who regularly read the marketing forum.
One more thing. I have no problem with a gallery owner using my images to promote BOTH the gallery and my work. I've even provided jpegs in a couple of cases. But in this case, it sounds like she is using it just to promote her gallery. This is a bit of a grey area for me, which is why I am sending you to the above website.
Also, I don't see a coyright issue here either. DOn't galleries have the right to illustrate what they are selling?
Paul
I'd really like to get a definitive answer here, if anyone knows for certain, simply because I don't know for certain.
As for the promo, that's a real plus for you too. Even if your name was not on the promo materials, potential clients will see it when they come to the gallery.
That's all business sense, rather than legal opinion.
In your shoes I'd approach the gallery owner and express sincere thanks for her purchase and your excitement that she chose to highlight your work. If she responds in kind, it's time to propose a solo show or at least hanging more of your work...... At $1800 a pop, of course!
If you don't want to play in that ball game, pass along her name so someone else can step up to the plate.
Of course she can sell any property she buys from you for any amount she wants whether it is a camera, car or or photo. Many people use art as an investment. Where it sounds like she is crossing the line is using your image in promotional materials. Owning a print or painting doesn't give you any additional stock usage rights. Now typically a photographer is fine with the additional promotion, but that may not be the case here - only you can decide if the battle is worth it.
Guy
I'm not sure where I will go from here as far as pricing my work. I'm thinking about talking to her about a future show, but like I said in the origninal post, she's a bit nuts.
The arts world is full of eccentrics, and is in fact noted for that. She may just be crazy like a fox. If we only associate ourselves professionally with people we understand, we eliminate markets. We don't have to like all our clients, we just have to satisfy them.
Hopefully, she doesn't read this forum.
Congrats on the sale.
I would then agree with John Wall and others. I would not approach her about a copyright violation, but I would definitely be at the opening with business cards in tow, and I would definitely be speaking with her about possible representation. She may just prefer to continue buying and reselling you work as she has already done. She'll clear a lot more profit on this sale than if she had been splitting the full $1800 with you!
I know you have no control over the price this gallery has set to sell at, but be very cafefull in selling any future works to this gallery pricing your images in this high price range, its is a very small market willing to paid that much. When you go to sell this image again in the future at another gallery or art show you will have to maintain that high price or it could be viewed as the value of your work has droped, or you could end up with a unhappy customer that has paid the 1800.00 and now see's your work selling for less. Its only my opinion, but I would tread carefully in the area of high pricing. I hope it all works out well for you.
In future, post a small © copyright symbol beside your name on the front. Post a sign beside your images and on the back that states that the images are copyrighted and publishing or reproduction rights may only be granted by the photographer or photographer's agent. You can use finesse and both artist and gallery will be winners.
In future, post a small © copyright symbol beside your name on the front. Post a sign beside your images and on the back that states that the images are copyrighted and publishing or reproduction rights may only be granted by the photographer or photographer's agent. You can use finesse and both artist and gallery will be winners.
In future, post a small © copyright symbol beside your name on the front. Post a sign beside your images and on the back that states that the images are copyrighted and publishing or reproduction rights may only be granted by the photographer or photographer's agent. You can use finesse and both artist and gallery will be winners.
Could I have the name and contact information for this gallery??? I have some GREAT prints that I'd like to sell to her...
Tim!
Tim!
My question is would someone be willing to buy your work for 1800 dollars? She may be using her influence in the world of Galleries to make a sale. And if word gets out that you, the photographer, is selling the same work for only 350 dollars who would buy it for the higher amount?
I thought Galleries represent the work of artists and they would get a commission for selling it. Or do they buy the work and mark up the price to whatever they want?
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
Dan, I have to seriously wonder if you are undervaluing your work with matted 20x30 Limited Edition prints priced at $225. While the gallery price seems ridiculously high, you may want to consider increasing your prices. If a gallery gets too greedy and prices the work too high, you may get some direct request from non-eclectic art buyers doing price comparison or looking for other work. If someone sees a very low price on your website, then they may infer the work is of lesser quality and may lose interest. Then both you and the gallery lose.
Dan, another question I have is how is your work presented in her gallery? Did she buy just the print from you? Galleries are known for their framing and frames can cost as much or more than the work itself. So I am curious how your print looks hanging in her gallery. The image itself is no doubt beautiful but presentation can be everything.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
We offer framing options through out photo studio, and the prices are startling to most clients even if we are taking negligible markups. Often we have clients return to us however after visiting either of the local frame shops to find similar prices there. Probably because our selection is better geared to photos, but that's not the point. The bigger point is that as image size goes up, by the time you add matts and frames you can easily double to price. Figure in a 50% or more markup on the original $350 photo price cited by Dan, and the price tag may not be all that far out of whack.
Moral of the story: Get hooked up with one of the matt and frame supply houses, buy set of corners, and offer the option to your clients.
A couple of comments.
I'm always questioning my prices. I'd like to charge more, but I have to keep in mind what the client is willing to pay. I feel like 350 is probably too low, but 1800 is way too high. I do lots of outdoor shows and 350 for a 20x30 is a nice sale. I do a gallery and 350 is too low(gallery commision,30-40 %).
As far as this gallery purchasing my work. I've never heard of a gallery buying something up front like this before. It's almost always been on "commision" up till now. That's why I was bewildered to begin with.
Hank said:Moral of the story: Get hooked up with one of the matt and frame supply houses, buy set of corners, and offer the option to your clients.
Right on Hank. When I first started doing fine art photography, I couldn't come close to charging 350 for a framed 24x36 w/ 20x30 print. After shoping around the last couple of years, I've found how to do everything cheaper(maintaining quality of course). This is a business like any other.
Thanks again for all of the comments! Dan
Seriously, I see all this as a compliment. The art galleries in Ashland -as in many places - are very high-priced. But I'd also suggest that you raise your prices!
I'm uncertain about her using your work in her promotional materials, without your express written consent, and I'd also suggest you get a formal response from an atty here. Please let us know, as this is an issue that we all could have to deal with (hopefully!!
Sandy R