Posted by Terry Sohl on September 26, 2006 at 12:45 PM
Great news from Auburn University researchers, who have good evidence of Ivory-billed Woodpeckers in the Florida Panhandle. Here's the link to the story:
If you read the paper online in "Avian Conservation and Ecology", they claim 14 distinct sightings, and over 300 recordings of the Ivory-billed's unique "kent" call and double-knocks. Here's the link to the journal, with html and PDF versions of the article:
http://www.ace-eco.org/
What they DON'T have...a clear photograph. All they have is some fuzzy video (sound familliar?). However...if you're one of those non-believing skeptics (Sibley comes to mind)...C'MON!!!!
What bugged me about Sibley coming out publicly and downplaying all of the Cornell work in Arkansas is his complete lack of respect for the Cornell folks (my interpretation). If a well-known, well-respected ornithologist comes out publically and states they've seen an Ivory-billed, who is Sibley to denounce that sighting, ESPECIALLY since it was multiple viewings, from several different people? What if it had been Sibley who had seen one? Would he have expected everybody to believe HIM, just because of his name?
I'm a scientist (with USGS), and I certainly understand the desire for conclusive proof in the form of a photo. However, my general level of cynacism hasn't (yet) reached the point where I lose faith in the character of my fellow researchers. You've now got sightings from respected ornithologists in two different locations. Clear photo or not, I hope this Florida work helps to take some of the heat away from the Cornell group.
Do your reading. I do not think that anyone has seen a single IBW in many years. What may have been seen in the White River area of Arkansas was a part albino pileated woodpecker. I spent about a week an a half in Brinkley Arkansas last year looking around and talking to farmers, duck hunters, birders and a few rangers in the area. It is a easy area to access compared to say the swamps of Santee or the N.W. part of Fla. And that crappy video shot by the pro photographer a four year old would do better. I can say this, go to Brinkley and you will find some HUGE bald cypress to photograph, lots of other woodpeckers, some owls, lots of geese and some really nice people. If I can help any one in any way that is thinking about going to the area I would be happy to do so. P.S. I met and talked with one of the Cornell teams while I was down there and found them very narrow minded, uninformed, etc. They have alienated a lot of the local land owners and even a number of birders.
Posted by Terry Sohl on September 26, 2006 at 9:46 PM
Wake up on the wrong side of the bed, Robby? Chill out there buddy.
"Do your reading". Uh, OK. Go read the actual journal article from the Auburn folks in "Avian Conservation and Ecology". Read the journal's editorial on why they published it. Do you have any idea what the concept of a "peer-reviewed article" is? They don't publish material that's based only on conjecture, opinion, etc. They published the article because it presents extremely strong scientific evidence of the presence of Ivory-billed Woodpeckers.
But hey, I'm sure it's the Cornell folks and now the Auburn folks who are "narrow-minded and uninformed". And after all, you did spend a whole week and a half in the area. I'll put my faith in your word and vast experience, rather than in the words of multiple city-slicker University folks with the letters "PhD" after their names.
Posted by Don Miller on September 27, 2006 at 4:40 PM
Posted by Terry Sohl on September 27, 2006 at 5:07 PM
Sightings by at least a dozen different qualified ornithologists, in 2 different locations now? Over 300 recordings of "kent" calls and double-knocks by the Auburn group? Sightings of 2 birds at the same time by the Auburn group? That isn't extraordinary evidence?
Any doubters...read the Auburn journal article (not the newspaper article). They did a great job in writing up the evidence in a very scientific manner. They did it just as they should have...presented the evidence in an extremely clear manner, and used it to help rule out the "null" hypothesis that Ivory-billeds aren't present. Great job in that paper.
If ANYBODY should understand the difficulty in getting a good photo of these guys, it should be the folks out here on this website!! The population of Ivory-billeds is obviously pretty darn small. Do you realize how difficult if often is to go out and get recognizable photos of even more common species?
South Dakota is great in the winter for northern birds like Gyrfalcons and Snowy Owls, I've seen Gyrfalcons probably 3-4 dozen times, and I've seen snowy owls probably 8-10 times in my 5-years of birding. That's 50 or so sightings, and even though I've had a camera with me on every single occasion, I only have about 4 good Gyrfalcon photos, and not a single snowy owl photo where the bird is even identifiable. And here, we're talking about open grasslands where visibility isn't hindered like it is in Ivory-billed territory.
The Cornell and Auburn groups now have about 25-30 sightings, total. Given the small number of sightings, and given the habitat these birds are in, is it surprising in the least that there's not a good photo of them yet?
Posted by Don Miller on September 27, 2006 at 5:12 PM
remember cold fusion?
Posted by Terry Sohl on September 27, 2006 at 7:00 PM
What? Cold Fusion? Ivory-billed Woodpeckers? Am I missing something here?
You know what I find TRULY scary? The decline of SCIENCE and logical thought in the United States. Take creationism vs. evolution. Compared to the rest of the (developed) world, it's not even CLOSE in terms of the percentage of folks in the U.S. who reject evolution. This isn't the place to debate that subject, but it's symptomatic of the complete disregard for true science in the United States.
How about global warming, Don? Is that another figment of our imagination?
What more do you want? 25-30 sightings, and audio recordings aren't enough for you? I find it quite amusing that people have such a disregard and in many cases DISDAIN for true scientific reporting.
It's truly scary to be a scientist in the U.S. Government right now. Just yesterday, it was reported that a NOAA commissioned study on the effects of global warming on hurricanes was pulled from publication by Bush's science advisors. I study land cover change and it's relationship to carbon dynamics and global warming. There have been government colleagues who have had their work revised by political appointeees. There have been USGS colleagues who have studied oil drilling in ANWR who have found that it would severely impact caribou populations, only to have Gail Norton, former Dept. of Interior head, report EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE in a report to Congress! Also in the news last week, EPA scientist recommendations on control of fine particulate pollution in the atmosphere were basically tossed aside, in favor of a more industry-friendly standard.
Getting off the topic of Ivory-billed Woodpeckers, but WAKE UP PEOPLE!!! SCIENCE IS NOT THE ENEMY!!!
Posted by Don Miller on September 27, 2006 at 10:07 PM
You know what I find TRULY scary? The decline of SCIENCE and logical thought in the United States.
exactly
Posted by Terry Sohl on September 27, 2006 at 10:24 PM
"exactly". Hmmm...coming off of your quote of somehow comparing this to cold fusion, I'm not quite sure what to make of "exactly".
The journal article speaks for itself, if you'd bother to read it.
Posted by Bill Chambers on September 28, 2006 at 9:16 AM
Off the debate a little here but....
I live in NW Florida, but am no birder. I wouldn't know an IBW from a Pilleated, but I certainly hope the folks from Auburn were correct for the species sake. I have no reason to doubt them, and will choose to believe them at this point. What reason do they have to falsely report this? Publicity? Doesn't make sense - imagine the BAD publicity if they were proven wrong. Who needs that headache? Anyway, that's not why I'm writing.
What I truly HOPE doesn't happen here is the circus atmosphere that happened in Arkansas, with all the tourons and money grubbing locals trying to capitalize on this poor bird's existance or non-existance. We have enough of that crap in Florida already!
Posted by Don Miller on September 29, 2006 at 11:17 AM
If the bird is still alive, we'll get conclusive proof. If not, we'll have many years of sightings. The truth is binary. Why should opinions matter? If it's alive, it's existence isn't a postulate that will always contain grey areas. If it can be clearly photographed in the 1930s, it can be more easily recorded now.
Posted by Terry Sohl on September 29, 2006 at 12:48 PM
"We'll have many years of sightings" if it doesn't exist?
And you obviously aren't an avian photographer. Go out with a camera to a similar environment and try to get a photo of the Ivory billed's much more common relative, the Pileated Woodpecker. Track your success ratio in terms of how many clear photos you get per bird that you see or hear, and then maybe you'll understand. 25-30 sightings and no clear photo? Not surprising in the least.
Posted by Guy Tal on September 29, 2006 at 3:28 PM
I guess "good news" depends on one's point of view. If I were an endangered species, Florida probably wouldn't be my first choice for habitat
Guy
Posted by Kim Kaiser on September 30, 2006 at 12:13 AM
i second Guys comments,,
Posted by Terry Sohl on October 2, 2006 at 1:06 PM
In general, no, Florida wouldn't be the ideal choice. My work with USGS is studying landscape change. The spatial framework we use divides the lower 48 into 84 distinct "ecoregions", areas with consisent ecological characteristics. Of the ecoregions where our work is complete, the 2 that are in Florida show the highest levels of land cover change in the nation. So you're right, Florida in general isn't ideal.
However, as the authors state, much of the land where the discoveries were made is owned by the State of Florida, and is protected from logging. An island of stability in an ocean of change.
There are areas in Western Florida that are some of the hardest to access of any you will ever see. But here we are in 2007 and not one crappy photo of the lost bird, Elvis still has not booked a new tour and we still don`t have Jimmy Hoffa or his killers. One of the pillars that pro birders stand on is that they are the only people qualified to id a bird. But there are are photographers, duck hunters, kayakers, loggers out there that are very well schooled about the rare bird. In addition to this there are pilots of small aircraft over the areas on almost a daily basis and still no bird. I do hope that some day we find it but I really do not hold out much hope. I have spent many days in this area, fishing, bow fishing, catching snakes and just enjoying being in a really wild place. It can be hot, humid, buggy, and the baddest snake in the US calls it home, and I love it. There is really a moment in time when you are waist deep in palmettos and you hear the buzz of your neighbor. Terry if you ever get over this way in the Winter time when I can get away from the farm I will take you out and show you some really special places. The Spanish moss hanging from the live oaks, long leaf pines and bald cypress in the gloom of first light or fading light is like the setting of a fariy tail. To be in the swamps at 3 am and hear the birds and critters and bugs is my favorite concert second to none.
Posted by Don Miller on January 29, 2007 at 11:21 PM
Either way this turns out, the result will be fascinating. Anyone know the estimate for a minimum sustainable population for a bird like this?
Posted by Bill Stice on February 1, 2007 at 4:02 PM
"Do your reading. I do not think that anyone has seen a single IBW in many years. What may have been seen in the White River area of Arkansas was a part albino pileated woodpecker. I spent about a week an a half in Brinkley Arkansas last year looking around and talking to farmers, duck hunters, birders and a few rangers in the area. It is a easy area to access compared to say the swamps of Santee or the N.W. part of Fla. And that crappy video shot by the pro photographer a four year old would do better. I can say this, go to Brinkley and you will find some HUGE bald cypress to photograph, lots of other woodpeckers, some owls, lots of geese and some really nice people. If I can help any one in any way that is thinking about going to the area I would be happy to do so. P.S. I met and talked with one of the Cornell teams while I was down there and found them very narrow minded, uninformed, etc. They have alienated a lot of the local land owners and even a number of birders." By Robert Hice
Robert, I don't know how much of eastern Arkansas you actually saw in your few days but I was born and raised there. You probably talked to some of my relatives who are duck hunters, farmers and loggers. I grew up in Brinkley, Cotton Plant, and Clarendon, Arkansas and my dad and uncle were loggers there for over fifty years. I still have dozens of cousins, uncles and many extended family members there. In the White River National Wildlife Refuge along the White and Arkansas Rivers there are areas as wild as anywhere in the lower 48. My dad and one of my uncles select cut timber off the entire wildlife refuge during the 50's, 60's and 70's. I have covered most of the southeastern half of Arkansas when I was growing up and it would be an easy place for a lot of things to be lost in and hide.
I'm not saying that the Ivory Billed was sighted or not. I didn't know what one was when I lived and worked there but a lot of my relatives who still live all over that area tell me that it is certainly possible that one could be found there.
By the way I saw a cougar that wasn't supposed to be there either when I was in my teens near Little Dixie, Arkansas. Little Dixie is half way between Cotton Plant and Des Arc. I was frog hunting on Cache River and the cougar was standing ten feet above me and two adult uncles of mine. We all three had headlights on it and yes we are sure it was a cougar. We were told that it couldn't be because cougars hadn't been sighted there in decades.
sorry to say it Mr. Hice Jr, but have you ever taken the time to find out what USGS is? or how respected USGS scientists are? or how respected Cornell U is for its birds and butterflies? something missing in the education department. Or have you ever sat down and read one of those environmental summaries for the protection and recovery of a species to see all the phenomenal work that can go into one of them? people can knock the US gov, but the problem is that they never bother to explore the wealth of scientific literature and studies that are produced through the government docs system--and generally they haven't a clue of the amount of expertise, time and effort that conscientious scientists do in the field--
and as for 25-30 sightings and no clear pic-- not really surprising. I can't even get a clear pic of a tit that eats off my desk next to me because they are so flighty-- and big birds are even worse because you have to be able to anticipate their actions and be exceptionally quick to adjust your camera for focus and sudden movement. woodpeckers are notorious for being shy, even the ones that live by the house will sense when the camera comes out and disappear.
and what's that got to do with Hoffa, haven't the foggiest idea except that he was a bird of different kind altogether.
I was also told that there are no bears in Czech Republic, but the problem was I crossed some bear tracks and the horse coming across behind me on the road jolted and spooked-- but the bears are moving across from the east and ranging back across to Austria again. the area about Karlstejn would be perfect habitat for bears with all the deserted mines and aint no dog that has a print bigger than my foot. and am certain it was bear tracks--just like the boar I met face to face. okay maybe nobody believed me, but I can't say that it was a ghost and meeting nose to nose with a boar really isn't the best kind of personal introduction even if soneone else believes it to be an apparition.
sorry but I have tons of respect for USGS and their surveys. no respect for bush admin and its political ploys--
Discussion
18 replieshttp://www.al.com/news/mobileregister/index.ssf?/base/news/1159262255281490.xml&coll=3
If you read the paper online in "Avian Conservation and Ecology", they claim 14 distinct sightings, and over 300 recordings of the Ivory-billed's unique "kent" call and double-knocks. Here's the link to the journal, with html and PDF versions of the article:
http://www.ace-eco.org/
What they DON'T have...a clear photograph. All they have is some fuzzy video (sound familliar?). However...if you're one of those non-believing skeptics (Sibley comes to mind)...C'MON!!!!
What bugged me about Sibley coming out publicly and downplaying all of the Cornell work in Arkansas is his complete lack of respect for the Cornell folks (my interpretation). If a well-known, well-respected ornithologist comes out publically and states they've seen an Ivory-billed, who is Sibley to denounce that sighting, ESPECIALLY since it was multiple viewings, from several different people? What if it had been Sibley who had seen one? Would he have expected everybody to believe HIM, just because of his name?
I'm a scientist (with USGS), and I certainly understand the desire for conclusive proof in the form of a photo. However, my general level of cynacism hasn't (yet) reached the point where I lose faith in the character of my fellow researchers. You've now got sightings from respected ornithologists in two different locations. Clear photo or not, I hope this Florida work helps to take some of the heat away from the Cornell group.
"Do your reading". Uh, OK. Go read the actual journal article from the Auburn folks in "Avian Conservation and Ecology". Read the journal's editorial on why they published it. Do you have any idea what the concept of a "peer-reviewed article" is? They don't publish material that's based only on conjecture, opinion, etc. They published the article because it presents extremely strong scientific evidence of the presence of Ivory-billed Woodpeckers.
But hey, I'm sure it's the Cornell folks and now the Auburn folks who are "narrow-minded and uninformed". And after all, you did spend a whole week and a half in the area. I'll put my faith in your word and vast experience, rather than in the words of multiple city-slicker University folks with the letters "PhD" after their names.
Any doubters...read the Auburn journal article (not the newspaper article). They did a great job in writing up the evidence in a very scientific manner. They did it just as they should have...presented the evidence in an extremely clear manner, and used it to help rule out the "null" hypothesis that Ivory-billeds aren't present. Great job in that paper.
If ANYBODY should understand the difficulty in getting a good photo of these guys, it should be the folks out here on this website!! The population of Ivory-billeds is obviously pretty darn small. Do you realize how difficult if often is to go out and get recognizable photos of even more common species?
South Dakota is great in the winter for northern birds like Gyrfalcons and Snowy Owls, I've seen Gyrfalcons probably 3-4 dozen times, and I've seen snowy owls probably 8-10 times in my 5-years of birding. That's 50 or so sightings, and even though I've had a camera with me on every single occasion, I only have about 4 good Gyrfalcon photos, and not a single snowy owl photo where the bird is even identifiable. And here, we're talking about open grasslands where visibility isn't hindered like it is in Ivory-billed territory.
The Cornell and Auburn groups now have about 25-30 sightings, total. Given the small number of sightings, and given the habitat these birds are in, is it surprising in the least that there's not a good photo of them yet?
You know what I find TRULY scary? The decline of SCIENCE and logical thought in the United States. Take creationism vs. evolution. Compared to the rest of the (developed) world, it's not even CLOSE in terms of the percentage of folks in the U.S. who reject evolution. This isn't the place to debate that subject, but it's symptomatic of the complete disregard for true science in the United States.
How about global warming, Don? Is that another figment of our imagination?
What more do you want? 25-30 sightings, and audio recordings aren't enough for you? I find it quite amusing that people have such a disregard and in many cases DISDAIN for true scientific reporting.
It's truly scary to be a scientist in the U.S. Government right now. Just yesterday, it was reported that a NOAA commissioned study on the effects of global warming on hurricanes was pulled from publication by Bush's science advisors. I study land cover change and it's relationship to carbon dynamics and global warming. There have been government colleagues who have had their work revised by political appointeees. There have been USGS colleagues who have studied oil drilling in ANWR who have found that it would severely impact caribou populations, only to have Gail Norton, former Dept. of Interior head, report EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE in a report to Congress! Also in the news last week, EPA scientist recommendations on control of fine particulate pollution in the atmosphere were basically tossed aside, in favor of a more industry-friendly standard.
Getting off the topic of Ivory-billed Woodpeckers, but WAKE UP PEOPLE!!! SCIENCE IS NOT THE ENEMY!!!
exactly
The journal article speaks for itself, if you'd bother to read it.
I live in NW Florida, but am no birder. I wouldn't know an IBW from a Pilleated, but I certainly hope the folks from Auburn were correct for the species sake. I have no reason to doubt them, and will choose to believe them at this point. What reason do they have to falsely report this? Publicity? Doesn't make sense - imagine the BAD publicity if they were proven wrong. Who needs that headache? Anyway, that's not why I'm writing.
What I truly HOPE doesn't happen here is the circus atmosphere that happened in Arkansas, with all the tourons and money grubbing locals trying to capitalize on this poor bird's existance or non-existance. We have enough of that crap in Florida already!
And you obviously aren't an avian photographer. Go out with a camera to a similar environment and try to get a photo of the Ivory billed's much more common relative, the Pileated Woodpecker. Track your success ratio in terms of how many clear photos you get per bird that you see or hear, and then maybe you'll understand. 25-30 sightings and no clear photo? Not surprising in the least.
Guy
However, as the authors state, much of the land where the discoveries were made is owned by the State of Florida, and is protected from logging. An island of stability in an ocean of change.
Robert, I don't know how much of eastern Arkansas you actually saw in your few days but I was born and raised there. You probably talked to some of my relatives who are duck hunters, farmers and loggers. I grew up in Brinkley, Cotton Plant, and Clarendon, Arkansas and my dad and uncle were loggers there for over fifty years. I still have dozens of cousins, uncles and many extended family members there. In the White River National Wildlife Refuge along the White and Arkansas Rivers there are areas as wild as anywhere in the lower 48. My dad and one of my uncles select cut timber off the entire wildlife refuge during the 50's, 60's and 70's. I have covered most of the southeastern half of Arkansas when I was growing up and it would be an easy place for a lot of things to be lost in and hide.
I'm not saying that the Ivory Billed was sighted or not. I didn't know what one was when I lived and worked there but a lot of my relatives who still live all over that area tell me that it is certainly possible that one could be found there.
By the way I saw a cougar that wasn't supposed to be there either when I was in my teens near Little Dixie, Arkansas. Little Dixie is half way between Cotton Plant and Des Arc. I was frog hunting on Cache River and the cougar was standing ten feet above me and two adult uncles of mine. We all three had headlights on it and yes we are sure it was a cougar. We were told that it couldn't be because cougars hadn't been sighted there in decades.
sorry to say it Mr. Hice Jr, but have you ever taken the time to find out what USGS is? or how respected USGS scientists are? or how respected Cornell U is for its birds and butterflies? something missing in the education department. Or have you ever sat down and read one of those environmental summaries for the protection and recovery of a species to see all the phenomenal work that can go into one of them? people can knock the US gov, but the problem is that they never bother to explore the wealth of scientific literature and studies that are produced through the government docs system--and generally they haven't a clue of the amount of expertise, time and effort that conscientious scientists do in the field--
and as for 25-30 sightings and no clear pic-- not really surprising. I can't even get a clear pic of a tit that eats off my desk next to me because they are so flighty-- and big birds are even worse because you have to be able to anticipate their actions and be exceptionally quick to adjust your camera for focus and sudden movement. woodpeckers are notorious for being shy, even the ones that live by the house will sense when the camera comes out and disappear.
and what's that got to do with Hoffa, haven't the foggiest idea except that he was a bird of different kind altogether.
I was also told that there are no bears in Czech Republic, but the problem was I crossed some bear tracks and the horse coming across behind me on the road jolted and spooked-- but the bears are moving across from the east and ranging back across to Austria again. the area about Karlstejn would be perfect habitat for bears with all the deserted mines and aint no dog that has a print bigger than my foot. and am certain it was bear tracks--just like the boar I met face to face. okay maybe nobody believed me, but I can't say that it was a ghost and meeting nose to nose with a boar really isn't the best kind of personal introduction even if soneone else believes it to be an apparition.
sorry but I have tons of respect for USGS and their surveys. no respect for bush admin and its political ploys--